Chinese Ottoman... or Impressionalism Trend in Arms Collecting:-)?

ALEX · 20th February 2012, 09:24 AM

Went on eBay titled: (original) "18th Century Hunting Sword or Hanger with Talismans Eastern European"... and commanded some interest. the thing has some Ottoman symbols / (naval?) elements, even shows some age and relatively elaborately chiselled crossguard, but nothing in it makes sense. looks like someone put some efforts to produce a "fantasy" item, but still tried to make it look "original". lack of literacy, or an attempt to be "original"?:-)

As the 'copies and fakes' trend is on the rise in all forms: Mughal, Persian, Ottoman... what have you, does it become more "accepted". Based on the rising prices paid for modern copies of well known period pieces - it certainly gains popularity. Who's buying these things? Do we see a new trend in collecting?

ariel · 20th February 2012, 12:24 PM

I've seen quite a lot of similar ones in museum exhibitions: it was a popular form with popular decorations on the blade in the 17-18th centuries. The blade seems to be nickel-plated later, but it was also a widespread custom in the 19th century.
In short, I might be mistaken, but without actually holding it in my hands, I find nothing wrong or faked with it.

David R · 20th February 2012, 03:16 PM

I am inclined to agree, I think it has had a rough "life" but the pieces look ok....as said though, would need to be seen and handled to be sure about it.

ALEX · 20th February 2012, 03:25 PM

Ariel, thanks for the info.
I could be wrong of course, but despite looking old and relatively good quality it does not look right to me. You're certainly right that without handling and seeing it's hard to tell, but... crude and mixed blade decorations, clean "drilled?" holes at the crossguard, wooden handle, etc. Are there any references to similar swords and descriptions pointing to 17/18 C? Thanks again!

Rick · 20th February 2012, 04:54 PM

Any possibility that this is a Victorian era wallhanger ?
Those plugged holes in the blade don't seem right .

The whole piece seems a bit 'discordant' .

ALEX · 23rd February 2012, 12:05 PM

Thanks Ariel and David, you're right it looks ok, and the form is not unknown, but as Rick mentioned - not quite right at details level. here's pix of similar (real) swords refferring to 18th c.

...note the mentioning about large-headed rivets!

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2012, 06:29 PM

Good call Alex with the examples you posted, Im not sure which book these are from but the style is as noted, well placed. In the 18th century there was a profound attraction in Europe to oriental exotica in addition to the well known intrigue with occult, magic and esoterica. These were the source for considerable blade decoration and motif. There were actually even Chinese artisans brought into Poland for work on the flamboyant weapons sought by gentry and nobility. The advent of the smallsword carrying these themes was paralleled by the 'hunting sword' which is misleading in that rather than strictly utilitarian items, these were fashionable elements for dress and court wear.
This type of sword also gained considerable popularity in its use by the flamboyant units of auxiliary troops known as 'pandours' in Austria, which subsequently became known throughout many European armies by the end of the century. This is the reason that military themed panoplies often joined the magical/talismanic motif on the blades. Bashford Dean (1929) illustrates a number of these among the smallswords in his examples, and one notable element I recognize is the striations on the boss type rivets, seen on it seems several of these shown as 18th century. As I have always followed, these kind of subtle nuances are not typically seen on reproductions and 'wall hangers'. As shown in your examples posted, the openwork is also characteristic and recalls similar on many Chinese guards of this period.
There was a style of oriental influenced smallswords usually decorated in shakudo known as 'Tonquinese' as well (Aylward, 1945).

This looks to me a sound example of a European hunting/court sword of mid to late 18th century following the styles well established as discussed.

As far as who is collecting these, there has been a growing interest in smallswords, court swords, and even the seemingly ever present Masonic and fraternal swords as more research and information has become available. Interestingly the very intrigue, mysticism and 'fantasy' which was imbued in these weapons in the 18th century, is the very element attracting so many interested in novelty and fantasy in our times. Many of these items can command formidable prices commensurate with this popularity.

All the best,]
Jim

20th February 2012, 09:24 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Chinese Ottoman... or Impressionalism Trend in Arms Collecting:-)? Went on eBay titled: (original) "18th Century Hunting Sword or Hanger with Talismans Eastern European"... and commanded some interest. the thing has some Ottoman symbols / (naval?) elements, even shows some age and relatively elaborately chiselled crossguard, but nothing in it makes sense. looks like someone put some efforts to produce a "fantasy" item, but still tried to make it look "original". lack of literacy, or an attempt to be "original"?:-) As the 'copies and fakes' trend is on the rise in all forms: Mughal, Persian, Ottoman... what have you, does it become more "accepted". Based on the rising prices paid for modern copies of well known period pieces - it certainly gains popularity. Who's buying these things? Do we see a new trend in collecting? Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 20th February 2012 at 09:47 AM.

23rd February 2012, 12:05 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Thanks Ariel and David, you're right it looks ok, and the form is not unknown, but as Rick mentioned - not quite right at details level. here's pix of similar (real) swords refferring to 18th c. ...note the mentioning about large-headed rivets! Attached Images

24th February 2012, 06:29 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Good call Alex with the examples you posted, Im not sure which book these are from but the style is as noted, well placed. In the 18th century there was a profound attraction in Europe to oriental exotica in addition to the well known intrigue with occult, magic and esoterica. These were the source for considerable blade decoration and motif. There were actually even Chinese artisans brought into Poland for work on the flamboyant weapons sought by gentry and nobility. The advent of the smallsword carrying these themes was paralleled by the 'hunting sword' which is misleading in that rather than strictly utilitarian items, these were fashionable elements for dress and court wear. This type of sword also gained considerable popularity in its use by the flamboyant units of auxiliary troops known as 'pandours' in Austria, which subsequently became known throughout many European armies by the end of the century. This is the reason that military themed panoplies often joined the magical/talismanic motif on the blades. Bashford Dean (1929) illustrates a number of these among the smallswords in his examples, and one notable element I recognize is the striations on the boss type rivets, seen on it seems several of these shown as 18th century. As I have always followed, these kind of subtle nuances are not typically seen on reproductions and 'wall hangers'. As shown in your examples posted, the openwork is also characteristic and recalls similar on many Chinese guards of this period. There was a style of oriental influenced smallswords usually decorated in shakudo known as 'Tonquinese' as well (Aylward, 1945). This looks to me a sound example of a European hunting/court sword of mid to late 18th century following the styles well established as discussed. As far as who is collecting these, there has been a growing interest in smallswords, court swords, and even the seemingly ever present Masonic and fraternal swords as more research and information has become available. Interestingly the very intrigue, mysticism and 'fantasy' which was imbued in these weapons in the 18th century, is the very element attracting so many interested in novelty and fantasy in our times. Many of these items can command formidable prices commensurate with this popularity. All the best,] Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 26th February 2012 at 06:18 AM.

20th February 2012, 12:24 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I've seen quite a lot of similar ones in museum exhibitions: it was a popular form with popular decorations on the blade in the 17-18th centuries. The blade seems to be nickel-plated later, but it was also a widespread custom in the 19th century. In short, I might be mistaken, but without actually holding it in my hands, I find nothing wrong or faked with it.

20th February 2012, 03:16 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,052	I am inclined to agree, I think it has had a rough "life" but the pieces look ok....as said though, would need to be seen and handled to be sure about it.

20th February 2012, 03:25 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Ariel, thanks for the info. I could be wrong of course, but despite looking old and relatively good quality it does not look right to me. You're certainly right that without handling and seeing it's hard to tell, but... crude and mixed blade decorations, clean "drilled?" holes at the crossguard, wooden handle, etc. Are there any references to similar swords and descriptions pointing to 17/18 C? Thanks again!

20th February 2012, 04:54 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Any possibility that this is a Victorian era wallhanger ? Those plugged holes in the blade don't seem right . The whole piece seems a bit 'discordant' .