Identifying Modern Wootz

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Bryce,
This was also my point, it looks just like antique wootz.
I got the photo from the master himself, he is from Finland, and I have no reason to doubt authenticity.

I have the suspicion it is the same guy I contacted about 7 years ago about making a blade for me.

At that time he claimed he can make wootz with the antique type of pattern. However, he only had some cropped images (very similar to the one you posted), so he couldn't even show a photo of a whole blade he made with the antique watery pattern.

Moreover, he asked me if I don't have old wootz damaged blades for sale.

So I am very suspicious about his claims as I suspect that in best case scenario he is only reworking old blades.

PS: Found the correspondence with him: 18 July 2013.
His name is Niko Hynninen.

[kronckew]

I'd feel more comfortable with confirming evidence from a more unbiased metallurgist on a new blade than from a smith with a vested interest in it's 'rediscovery'. Buying old wootz blades to be a possible starting source rather than iron ore sounds like a shortcut too far. My POV is based on the original metallic component mix of the ores used in India for wootz having run out, (As did the skills to process the ores) and only The occasional billet pops up from time to time. Heck, sham wootz, or 'modern'crucible can look good and probably makes better more consistent knives and swords...

[Tim Mitchell]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I have the suspicion it is the same guy I contacted about 7 years ago about making a blade for me.
.........

So I am very suspicious about his claims as I suspect that in best case scenario he is only reworking old blades.

PS: Found the correspondence with him: 18 July 2013.
His name is Niko Hynninen.

Mariusgmioc,

I can assure you that Niko is the genuine article. He has been my friend for quite a few years and I have detailed knowledge of his process and his journey of making Wootz.

The blade patterns are his alone and the reason that he doesn't make blades for sale is that he isn't really a bladesmith. His focus has been on making the steel and on the scientific perfection of his process. He is one of the most knowledgeable smiths in the field, Peter Burt is pretty close too.

His desire to purchase old blades or sections of old blades is so that he can examine them under the microscope and have them analysed. There is very little analysis of ancient blades and the more information we can get, the better we are able to replicate them.

Niko was not interested in putting steel out there until he was able to get his process nailed down. I know that he is selling the odd bar from time to time now.

The patterning of the wootz blades is most definitely to do with the impurities in the blades. It is impossible to get the same patterning unless you replicate the elemental analysis at least roughly. Many of the current smiths don't do that, they use modern steels mixed together and they do make wootz, but it just looks a bit different than the old stuff because the elements are different.

Then we come to forging... once you have the analysis right or in the ballpark, you have to know how to forge the ingot out to get the right type of patterning. Even the original old Assad Allah blades did not have the same pattern throughout the blades. Ingots came from Khorassan and from India and the carbon contents were different.

Different carbon content makes different patterns, more Phosphorus makes different patterns, different Vanadium or Nobium levels give different patterns. Manganese in the ingot gives different patterning.

The temperatures you forge at during different stages and surface deformation change the pattern as does heat treating and even the type of quench or etchant.

There was so much variation in the old blades, and it is difficult to tell some of the new steel from the old of the same pattern type. Some is identical, but the good news is that the number who are making the identical wootz blades in the same pattern categories are few. Frankly I think you would get more money for the effort if you make a good kitchen knife out of wootz than making a reproduction with no provenance..

A really good wootz smith can sometimes tell the difference between most new wootz and old wootz, but I really don't believe that is a real issue into the future. There is only one guy who I know who could pull off a reproduction that would be hard to tell, and he isn't making reproductions..

I am a wootz smith and researcher, was mentored by Al Pendray and I have moderated the Wootz Steel group on FB for years. Just FYI.

[mross]

Originally Posted by Tim Mitchell

Mariusgmioc,



I am a wootz smith and researcher, was mentored by Al Pendray and I have moderated the Wootz Steel group on FB for years. Just FYI.

That is one sweet pedigree. Al was the best at modern wootz.
Too bad I don't do Facebook. Do you have anything on Instagram?

[Tim Mitchell]

Mross, I do have an IG account @buffaloriverforge , it has very few posts and only pictures of a few knives which I have kept from my early years. Unfortunately I photographed very few blades.. a fact I continually kick myself for..

I have been focusing on mentoring other smiths and research for several years, which I find very rewarding, but I am looking forward to getting back into making knives. I am setting my shop back up after some health struggles and a few inconvenient moves, and all going well will be posting some good patterns and blades in the coming year.