Two Interesting Moroccan Koummya Daggers

CharlesS · 24th January 2014, 05:23 PM

I am glad to see Moroccan koummya daggers back as a focus of interest. I will add these two interesting examples to our archives.

Based on quality I am not sure the two examples belong on the same thread, but I purchased them both recently and will include them together here.

The silver example is 18.5in. long and has a 10in. long quality blade that is finely fullered and features a combination or numbers and letters stamped on one side. I imagine this is a European made blade...French??? Spanish???

Notice on this one that while the artwork is basic and rudimentary, its dimensions are more elongated and elegant than the norm. The scabbard and blade are more narrow than usual. The hilt is also narrow, but more typical, and it accentuates the elegant style.

The gold example is actually a scabbard made of gilded silver alloy in a detailed floral motif. This is a much earlier example being at least 100 years old and perhaps older. The blade here is the rarer "claw" style with a well defined fuller. The hilt is rhino horn mounted en suite. It is 15in. long with a 8in. blade and is 3inches across at the pommel.

Martin Lubojacky · 24th January 2014, 06:38 PM

Hi,
Being not an expert in koummyas, but having strange feeling that these two pieces are exceptionally interesting, I would like to congratulate you to your recent purchase !
Martin

spiral · 24th January 2014, 11:01 PM

Lovely specimens Charles!

Any history with them?

I don't think the white hanger on the first is original though? it just doesn't look right... adds to completeness though...

With the same one. The ferrule seems not to fully match the hilt? is it slightly proud at the rear? {on the right hand side in your photo.} or is that an optical illusion? Also The rear pin hole in same ferrule seems to be missing the pin? Could it be a rework or marriage perhaps? What's your take on this?

Either way a nice piece with a beautifully forged & ground blade. & has as you say an artistic flair in design.

The claw type is truly delicious though! I think Patton picked up a similar piece when he was in North Africa? Ive never had the delight of handling one of these claw pieces.... I like them in photos though!

Quality all the way through.

Spiral

CharlesS · 25th January 2014, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Lovely specimens Charles!

Any history with them?

I don't think the white hanger on the first is original though? it just doesn't look right... adds to completeness though...

With the same one. The ferrule seems not to fully match the hilt? is it slightly proud at the rear? {on the right hand side in your photo.} or is that an optical illusion? Also The rear pin hole in same ferrule seems to be missing the pin? Could it be a rework or marriage perhaps? What's your take on this?

Either way a nice piece with a beautifully forged & ground blade. & has as you say an artistic flair in design.

The claw type is truly delicious though! I think Patton picked up a similar piece when he was in North Africa? Ive never had the delight of handling one of these claw pieces.... I like them in photos though!

Quality all the way through.

Spiral

Thanks for your comments.

Spiral, you are 100% correct regarding the baldric....I added it just for looks. I do not have the proper baldric rings yet...that would change everything.

The ferrule and rest are all 'born together'. There may be something in the pic that is throwing you off.

spiral · 25th January 2014, 08:19 AM

Ahh thank you Charles.

The photo or my eyes!

Fantastic pair all round then!

spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th January 2014, 02:26 PM

First; Please press into this http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/

Then~ a small but important resource exists on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=81117

Salaams all Note to Library; There is here at # 1 a certain degree of craftsmanship, thus, perhaps the tag Jewish Craftsmanship applies. In the second example the design with the pointed star of David is displayed twice. In the first example the balance and artistic definition are very high...though I would attribute both to Jewish workshops.

I was looking at Koummya generally and discovered a good and plentiful web back up from which I have added the pictures below to aid research; Thus both designs are identified.

The single black horizontal dagger is described as 20th Century

Morocco - Ait Ouaouzghit region, Southwest Atlas

Steel, silver, ebony wood

Full length: 41 cm, blade length: 23, 5 cm...

The interesting postcard is circa 1900 from Forum library Oran, Algeria..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

CharlesS · 25th January 2014, 03:41 PM

Ibrahim,

Thanks for your images. The most valuable one is the smallest identifying hilt forms....any way to blow that up and re-submit??

The example to the left(since moved to the right) is of tourist quality as are most in the dagger pile pic.

The bottom pic is a lovely piece of quality, and an early to mid 20th century date on it would not surprise me at all.

My impression is that koummyas of this more common form are a 20th century phenomenon altogether, but with huge differences in quality. I think we would be generally correct to say the older ones are of higher quality.

That said, I have seen some lovely new examples coming out of Morocco currently and sold as new, though they tend to be oversized, and lack the elegance and charm of the older ones.

Iain · 25th January 2014, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Ibrahim,

Thanks for your images. The most valuable one is the smallest identifying hilt forms....any way to blow that up and re-submit??

It's a pity the source wasn't given before. You'll need to translate from the French but the excellent page this was taken from is: http://blade.japet.com/koummya.htm

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th January 2014, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

It's a pity the source wasn't given before. You'll need to translate from the French but the excellent page this was taken from is: http://blade.japet.com/koummya.htm

Salaams Iain, That wasn't my source that's why I didn't refer it as such. I just Googled it. I will work your reference into the thread.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th January 2014, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Ibrahim,

Thanks for your images. The most valuable one is the smallest identifying hilt forms....any way to blow that up and re-submit??

The example to the left is of tourist quality as are most in the dagger pile pic.

The bottom pic is a lovely piece of quality, and an early to mid 20th century date on it would not surprise me at all.

My impression is that koummyas of this more common form are a 20th century phenomenon altogether, but with huge differences in quality. I think we would be generally correct to say the older ones are of higher quality.

That said, I have seen some lovely new examples coming out of Morocco currently and sold as new, though they tend to be oversized, and lack the elegance and charm of the older ones.

Salaams CharlesS~ No need since the original page is now identified as http://blade.japet.com/koummya.htm. A highly recommended view is urged ... It is in easy to comprehend French. I will post the relevant pictures for research as under;

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Iain · 25th January 2014, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, That wasn't my source that's why I didn't refer it as such. I just Googled it. I will work your reference into the thread.

It's worth the time to try and find the origins of the material you find via a search engine. For those that have put the effort into making the information available online and creating graphics such as these, it's the least we can do, and it also gives proper context and allows for those reading these threads to actually make use of the images you are posting.

In most cases it is not particularly difficult to ascertain, particularly using Google's image search features.

I'm glad you are now aware of Louis-Pierre's site and his work, as his pages contain well sourced material.

archer · 25th January 2014, 08:47 PM

Hi Charles, very nice finds. The narrower blade just looks like it means business. The gilt claw style has been hard for me to find and besides the gilt it looks as though the hilt is Rhino to boot. Excellent, Steve

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th January 2014, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

It's worth the time to try and find the origins of the material you find via a search engine. For those that have put the effort into making the information available online and creating graphics such as these, it's the least we can do, and it also gives proper context and allows for those reading these threads to actually make use of the images you are posting.

In most cases it is not particularly difficult to ascertain, particularly using Google's image search features.

I'm glad you are now aware of Louis-Pierre's site and his work, as his pages contain well sourced material.

Salaams Iain, As I said .."I Googled it and it came up as often it does as an unrelated picture"...but now that you have very kindly pointed out the works provenance I have of course noted to thread the details for research purposes.

Some people do not have the vast resources of private libraries, nor can they afford the extortionate fees for publications. My nearest decent bookshop is about 3,000 miles away and we have no libraries here of note. Thus, I use the web ~ very often.

On occasions, if a slip is made, it is so kind of you to remind me of the correct provenance to a reference so that library can be properly served...

By the way I have a name and usually it is the courteous form of addressing Forum posts and of course signing your name at the bottom... If you have time?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David · 26th January 2014, 05:05 PM

"I Googled it and it came up as often it does as an unrelated picture"
A general note to all who use Google images in the course of their research. Google images NEVER come up as unrelated pictures. That is not the nature of how a search engine works. When you single click on a picture on a google image search it opens in a larger window that allows you the option to either travel to the website of that image's origin to see it in context ("visit page") or open the image for a full-size viewing and/or downloading to your desktop ("view image"). Also, a second click on the image once opened in the larger window will also take you to the site of origin. Please see the attached screen capture below. Hopefully this information will help facilitate a more informed and effective use of images culled from the internet for our research process. Thanks.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th January 2014, 05:26 PM

Salaams David,Thank you for your kind, helpful and supportive post on how the web works.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David · 26th January 2014, 05:31 PM

My pleasure Ibrahiim…

Martin Lubojacky · 26th January 2014, 07:25 PM

Hi,
There were "a few" threads on koummyias and another Maghreb short cold weapons in this forum already. Let me recall this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=koummya
Jim put very important question (from my point of view) that time: "If there were any references which might address these which might note regional or tribal characteristics". I would be very interested in anthology on Koummiyas with tribal and place allocations etc. Many descriptions inform just about what we can simply see - kind of material used, description of the shape of pommel or handle, measurements, and dated ... often within the range of a century.
(BTW, if speaking about the quality of the blade and the age of this weapon: When I bought the forth piece from the left side /in my entry to a.m. thread - massive sheath body made of silver alloy and fully covered with small floral motives/, the wendor told me it was completely new made. But the quality of this new blade is much better than the quality of the blade of another koummiya - third from the left, which is definitely much more older ...)
Regards,
Martin

24th January 2014, 05:23 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Two Interesting Moroccan Koummya Daggers I am glad to see Moroccan koummya daggers back as a focus of interest. I will add these two interesting examples to our archives. Based on quality I am not sure the two examples belong on the same thread, but I purchased them both recently and will include them together here. The silver example is 18.5in. long and has a 10in. long quality blade that is finely fullered and features a combination or numbers and letters stamped on one side. I imagine this is a European made blade...French??? Spanish??? Notice on this one that while the artwork is basic and rudimentary, its dimensions are more elongated and elegant than the norm. The scabbard and blade are more narrow than usual. The hilt is also narrow, but more typical, and it accentuates the elegant style. The gold example is actually a scabbard made of gilded silver alloy in a detailed floral motif. This is a much earlier example being at least 100 years old and perhaps older. The blade here is the rarer "claw" style with a well defined fuller. The hilt is rhino horn mounted en suite. It is 15in. long with a 8in. blade and is 3inches across at the pommel. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 24th January 2014 at 06:45 PM.

25th January 2014, 02:26 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	First; Please press into this http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/ Then~ a small but important resource exists on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=81117 Salaams all Note to Library; There is here at # 1 a certain degree of craftsmanship, thus, perhaps the tag Jewish Craftsmanship applies. In the second example the design with the pointed star of David is displayed twice. In the first example the balance and artistic definition are very high...though I would attribute both to Jewish workshops. I was looking at Koummya generally and discovered a good and plentiful web back up from which I have added the pictures below to aid research; Thus both designs are identified. The single black horizontal dagger is described as 20th Century Morocco - Ait Ouaouzghit region, Southwest Atlas Steel, silver, ebony wood Full length: 41 cm, blade length: 23, 5 cm... The interesting postcard is circa 1900 from Forum library Oran, Algeria.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th January 2014 at 05:17 PM.

25th January 2014, 03:41 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Ibrahim, Thanks for your images. The most valuable one is the smallest identifying hilt forms....any way to blow that up and re-submit?? The example to the left(since moved to the right) is of tourist quality as are most in the dagger pile pic. The bottom pic is a lovely piece of quality, and an early to mid 20th century date on it would not surprise me at all. My impression is that koummyas of this more common form are a 20th century phenomenon altogether, but with huge differences in quality. I think we would be generally correct to say the older ones are of higher quality. That said, I have seen some lovely new examples coming out of Morocco currently and sold as new, though they tend to be oversized, and lack the elegance and charm of the older ones. Last edited by CharlesS; 25th January 2014 at 05:13 PM.

25th January 2014, 08:47 PM	#12
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Congrats Hi Charles, very nice finds. The narrower blade just looks like it means business. The gilt claw style has been hard for me to find and besides the gilt it looks as though the hilt is Rhino to boot. Excellent, Steve

26th January 2014, 05:05 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	"I Googled it and it came up as often it does as an unrelated picture" A general note to all who use Google images in the course of their research. Google images NEVER come up as unrelated pictures. That is not the nature of how a search engine works. When you single click on a picture on a google image search it opens in a larger window that allows you the option to either travel to the website of that image's origin to see it in context ("visit page") or open the image for a full-size viewing and/or downloading to your desktop ("view image"). Also, a second click on the image once opened in the larger window will also take you to the site of origin. Please see the attached screen capture below. Hopefully this information will help facilitate a more informed and effective use of images culled from the internet for our research process. Thanks. Attached Images Last edited by David; 26th January 2014 at 05:21 PM.

24th January 2014, 06:38 PM	#2
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Hi, Being not an expert in koummyas, but having strange feeling that these two pieces are exceptionally interesting, I would like to congratulate you to your recent purchase ! Martin

24th January 2014, 11:01 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Lovely specimens Charles! Any history with them? I don't think the white hanger on the first is original though? it just doesn't look right... adds to completeness though... With the same one. The ferrule seems not to fully match the hilt? is it slightly proud at the rear? {on the right hand side in your photo.} or is that an optical illusion? Also The rear pin hole in same ferrule seems to be missing the pin? Could it be a rework or marriage perhaps? What's your take on this? Either way a nice piece with a beautifully forged & ground blade. & has as you say an artistic flair in design. The claw type is truly delicious though! I think Patton picked up a similar piece when he was in North Africa? Ive never had the delight of handling one of these claw pieces.... I like them in photos though! Quality all the way through. Spiral

25th January 2014, 08:19 AM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ahh thank you Charles. The photo or my eyes! Fantastic pair all round then! spiral

26th January 2014, 05:26 PM	#15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams David,Thank you for your kind, helpful and supportive post on how the web works. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

26th January 2014, 05:31 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	My pleasure Ibrahiim…

26th January 2014, 07:25 PM	#17
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Hi, There were "a few" threads on koummyias and another Maghreb short cold weapons in this forum already. Let me recall this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=koummya Jim put very important question (from my point of view) that time: "If there were any references which might address these which might note regional or tribal characteristics". I would be very interested in anthology on Koummiyas with tribal and place allocations etc. Many descriptions inform just about what we can simply see - kind of material used, description of the shape of pommel or handle, measurements, and dated ... often within the range of a century. (BTW, if speaking about the quality of the blade and the age of this weapon: When I bought the forth piece from the left side /in my entry to a.m. thread - massive sheath body made of silver alloy and fully covered with small floral motives/, the wendor told me it was completely new made. But the quality of this new blade is much better than the quality of the blade of another koummiya - third from the left, which is definitely much more older ...) Regards, Martin