Poor remains of a Jambiya

Rather · 2nd December 2004, 08:34 PM

I kindly ask for your help. A fiend of mine got knowledge of my interest in ethnographic edged weapons and gave me following gift. The remains of, I guess from other posts in the old forum, Arabian Jambiya. The handle seems to be wood, backside covered with silver, the blade is in a poor condition, missing parts of the edges and dark spots of rust. The sheath is missing, only a silver plate with ornaments and stones, I believe it is sard (Karneol in German), survived. First of all, do you think is comes from the Arabian Peninsular? What might be the age? And finally, what to do with it? Leave it as it is or try a restoration? Thank you in advance for your much valued comments.

Rick · 2nd December 2004, 09:52 PM

Are you sure the handle is wood because it looks like it could be Rhino horn from the color and grain structure .

Possibly Yemeni ?

Radu Transylvanicus · 3rd December 2004, 12:50 AM

Definatelly a Yemeni Jambiya, the hilt is made in local ,,Sayfani,, style. The missing scabbard would`ve been metalic semi-tubular and deeply curved, pointing way upwards. Like Rick, before me, I do believe the hilt is of horn, likely the mighty black African rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis) horn (in a classic scenario, after hunting or poaching the animal in the savannas of central western Africa, the prized harvested horn would transit via Arab, Jewish or Indian ship merchants to Zanzibar or Socotra Islands market and bazaars).
Seems to be at least a lifetime old (museum slang for ,,up to a hundred years old,,) and some preservation efforts are recommended. The encrusted gem is carmelian, which is nothing but the ,,a la carte,, choice.
As you probably know, these daggers in different styles are very popular still in the entire Arab world, in many different shapes and sizes, always worn by men as a symbol of their status. The largest actual collection of Jambiya daggers known to mankind, likely belongs to the late King Faisal`s family in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
Some in theme images for you:

Yemeni troops shouting for war (1962)
Source: The Bettmann Library

An Armed Arab Child (1934)
Source: The Hulton-Deutsch Library

Mohammed El-Badr with Royalist Tribesmen in Yemen (1960s)
Source: The Bettman Library

Rick · 3rd December 2004, 01:00 AM

Rather , what is the bottom picture , a sheath fitting ?
Very nice looking stones .

Rather · 3rd December 2004, 08:13 AM

Very impressing pictures, I was not aware that the Jambaya was that popular still in the modern times. Thank you for sharing them.
Well, I have to admit that I never had a chance to see the horn of a rhino that close and it was always still fixed to the rhino…

But to be serious, the structure of the hilt does not show annual rings and it could be rhino horn. The silver plate with the stones was definitely a part of the sheath fitting, is shows the semi tubular shape, there are small holes at the sides and the size fits perfectly to the dagger blade.
I am not going to clean it perfectly, as I like very much the old patina on the weapon. My other hobby is to collect old Ottoman coins, and a harshly cleaned coin is always worth much less than the same one with the beautiful colour of age. Nevertheless, this does not mean that one should not do essential preservation or sensitive restoration.
My experience with old blades is near to zero, for more modern weapons like bayonets I use only a special oil for guns to avoid rust (a German product called Ballistol) and it is very recommendable. Nevertheless, it only removes thin rust films, not the thick rust.
What would you recommend to do? What is best to remove the rust without damaging the blade? Is there a chemical way or is polishing powder a solution? Or leave it as it is?

Marc · 3rd December 2004, 12:33 PM

Well, it's indeed an Arab Jambiya, from Yemen, as our Transilvanian Tiger has pointed out, and for the style of the hilt and what is left of the sheath, it may very well be a Gusbi, from the coastal area of Hadramaut, at the south, bordering the Arabian Sea. The hilt of those is normally similar to the "mainstream" Arab Jambiya, but the sheath has the peculiarity of curving very deeply upwards, featuring an elaborated chape that usually ends up at the same level or even higher than the hilt's pommel. The locket's decoration with red-coloured glass or stone ovals is also usual. A nice present, I must say

.
I also think the hilt it's rhino horn, by the way.
Some examples, from the Oriental-Arms website (for which one never may be grateful enough to Artzi):

Radu Transylvanicus · 3rd December 2004, 05:19 PM

(returned test)

Radu Transylvanicus · 3rd December 2004, 05:20 PM

Hola, Don Marco de Espana, que buenas noticias y tambien bellas imagenes de armas, captados con gran agudeza y colorido. Una vez más, un ejemplo de la calidad de la siempre vigente Artzi.
How`s my Spanish ?

VANDOO · 3rd December 2004, 06:23 PM

I WOULD PERSONALY LEAVE IT PRETTY MUCH AS IS. I WOULD CLEAN ANY ACTIVE RUST (BROWNISH, THE BLACK RUST IS GENERALLY STABELIZED) YOU CAN USE A NEEDLE OR DENTAL PICK FOR THIS. THERE IS ALSO A TYPE OF STEEL PAD THAT REMOVES LOOSE RUST WITHOUT TAKEING OFF THE PATINA.THE ONE I HAVE IS CALLED A FRONTIER METAL CLEANER, NORMALLY USED TO REMOVE RUST FROM GUNS WITHOUT REMOVING THE BLUEING, YOU CAN FIND THEM AT GUN SHOPS OR GUN SHOWS. REMOVE ANY DIRT AND COVER IT WITH RENASANCE WAX OR LIGHT OIL. THE SILVER APPEARS TO BE OF LOW GRADE AND WOULDN'T BENIFIT FROM CLEANING. PERHAPS SOMEONE COULD RECOMEND SOMEONE WHO COULD MAKE A SCABBARD USING THE PIECE YOU HAVE AND MEASUREMENTS OR A TRACED DRAWING OF THE KNIFE BLADE. A NICE DAGGER DOUBLY SO AS IT WAS A GIFT AND HAS ACTUALY BEEN USED. GOOD LUCK

Rick · 3rd December 2004, 06:32 PM

I agree with Barry , old warriors like this one should be conserved , they came by their wounds honestly .

Restoration would rob the personality from this old fellow .

Marc · 3rd December 2004, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Hola, Don Marco de Espana, que buenas noticias y tambien bellas imagenes de armas, captados con gran agudeza y colorido. Una vez más, un ejemplo de la calidad de la siempre vigente Artzi.
How`s my Spanish ?

Well, leaving aside some messing with the genders, I would say it's pretty good. Much better than my inexistent Romanian, that's for sure...

Though it's still Marc, if you don't mind...

Radu Transylvanicus · 4th December 2004, 09:28 AM

But of course, Marc !

Marc · 4th December 2004, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

But of course, Marc !

You're a gentleman, Radu.

Rather · 5th December 2004, 01:43 PM

Thanks, Vandoo, I will try to follow your recommendations. I also striongly feel that not too much cleaning should be done. Maybe I will posts the result of my afforts later, lets see, how it works.

2nd December 2004, 08:34 PM	#1
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Poor remains of a Jambiya I kindly ask for your help. A fiend of mine got knowledge of my interest in ethnographic edged weapons and gave me following gift. The remains of, I guess from other posts in the old forum, Arabian Jambiya. The handle seems to be wood, backside covered with silver, the blade is in a poor condition, missing parts of the edges and dark spots of rust. The sheath is missing, only a silver plate with ornaments and stones, I believe it is sard (Karneol in German), survived. First of all, do you think is comes from the Arabian Peninsular? What might be the age? And finally, what to do with it? Leave it as it is or try a restoration? Thank you in advance for your much valued comments. Attached Images Last edited by Rather; 2nd December 2004 at 08:48 PM.

3rd December 2004, 12:50 AM	#3
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Consensu Omnium Definatelly a Yemeni Jambiya, the hilt is made in local ,,Sayfani,, style. The missing scabbard would`ve been metalic semi-tubular and deeply curved, pointing way upwards. Like Rick, before me, I do believe the hilt is of horn, likely the mighty black African rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis) horn (in a classic scenario, after hunting or poaching the animal in the savannas of central western Africa, the prized harvested horn would transit via Arab, Jewish or Indian ship merchants to Zanzibar or Socotra Islands market and bazaars). Seems to be at least a lifetime old (museum slang for ,,up to a hundred years old,,) and some preservation efforts are recommended. The encrusted gem is carmelian, which is nothing but the ,,a la carte,, choice. As you probably know, these daggers in different styles are very popular still in the entire Arab world, in many different shapes and sizes, always worn by men as a symbol of their status. The largest actual collection of Jambiya daggers known to mankind, likely belongs to the late King Faisal`s family in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Some in theme images for you: Yemeni troops shouting for war (1962) Source: The Bettmann Library An Armed Arab Child (1934) Source: The Hulton-Deutsch Library Mohammed El-Badr with Royalist Tribesmen in Yemen (1960s) Source: The Bettman Library Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 3rd December 2004 at 01:23 AM.

3rd December 2004, 01:00 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	BTW Rather , what is the bottom picture , a sheath fitting ? Very nice looking stones .

3rd December 2004, 08:13 AM	#5
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Need more help... Very impressing pictures, I was not aware that the Jambaya was that popular still in the modern times. Thank you for sharing them. Well, I have to admit that I never had a chance to see the horn of a rhino that close and it was always still fixed to the rhino… But to be serious, the structure of the hilt does not show annual rings and it could be rhino horn. The silver plate with the stones was definitely a part of the sheath fitting, is shows the semi tubular shape, there are small holes at the sides and the size fits perfectly to the dagger blade. I am not going to clean it perfectly, as I like very much the old patina on the weapon. My other hobby is to collect old Ottoman coins, and a harshly cleaned coin is always worth much less than the same one with the beautiful colour of age. Nevertheless, this does not mean that one should not do essential preservation or sensitive restoration. My experience with old blades is near to zero, for more modern weapons like bayonets I use only a special oil for guns to avoid rust (a German product called Ballistol) and it is very recommendable. Nevertheless, it only removes thin rust films, not the thick rust. What would you recommend to do? What is best to remove the rust without damaging the blade? Is there a chemical way or is polishing powder a solution? Or leave it as it is?

3rd December 2004, 12:33 PM	#6
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Well, it's indeed an Arab Jambiya, from Yemen, as our Transilvanian Tiger has pointed out, and for the style of the hilt and what is left of the sheath, it may very well be a *Gusbi, from the coastal area of Hadramaut, at the south, bordering the Arabian Sea. The hilt of those is normally similar to the "mainstream" Arab Jambiya*, but the sheath has the peculiarity of curving very deeply upwards, featuring an elaborated chape that usually ends up at the same level or even higher than the hilt's pommel. The locket's decoration with red-coloured glass or stone ovals is also usual. A nice present, I must say . I also think the hilt it's rhino horn, by the way. Some examples, from the Oriental-Arms website (for which one never may be grateful enough to Artzi): Attached Images

2nd December 2004, 09:52 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Are you sure the handle is wood because it looks like it could be Rhino horn from the color and grain structure . Possibly Yemeni ?

3rd December 2004, 05:19 PM	#7
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	(returned test)

3rd December 2004, 05:20 PM	#8
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Hola, Don Marco de Espana, que buenas noticias y tambien bellas imagenes de armas, captados con gran agudeza y colorido. Una vez más, un ejemplo de la calidad de la siempre vigente Artzi. How`s my Spanish ?

3rd December 2004, 06:23 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD PERSONALY LEAVE IT PRETTY MUCH AS IS. I WOULD CLEAN ANY ACTIVE RUST (BROWNISH, THE BLACK RUST IS GENERALLY STABELIZED) YOU CAN USE A NEEDLE OR DENTAL PICK FOR THIS. THERE IS ALSO A TYPE OF STEEL PAD THAT REMOVES LOOSE RUST WITHOUT TAKEING OFF THE PATINA.THE ONE I HAVE IS CALLED A FRONTIER METAL CLEANER, NORMALLY USED TO REMOVE RUST FROM GUNS WITHOUT REMOVING THE BLUEING, YOU CAN FIND THEM AT GUN SHOPS OR GUN SHOWS. REMOVE ANY DIRT AND COVER IT WITH RENASANCE WAX OR LIGHT OIL. THE SILVER APPEARS TO BE OF LOW GRADE AND WOULDN'T BENIFIT FROM CLEANING. PERHAPS SOMEONE COULD RECOMEND SOMEONE WHO COULD MAKE A SCABBARD USING THE PIECE YOU HAVE AND MEASUREMENTS OR A TRACED DRAWING OF THE KNIFE BLADE. A NICE DAGGER DOUBLY SO AS IT WAS A GIFT AND HAS ACTUALY BEEN USED. GOOD LUCK

3rd December 2004, 06:32 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Ditto I agree with Barry , old warriors like this one should be conserved , they came by their wounds honestly . Restoration would rob the personality from this old fellow .

4th December 2004, 09:28 AM	#12
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	But of course, Marc !

5th December 2004, 01:43 PM	#14
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Thanks! Thanks, Vandoo, I will try to follow your recommendations. I also striongly feel that not too much cleaning should be done. Maybe I will posts the result of my afforts later, lets see, how it works.