Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th October 2018, 04:27 PM   #1
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default Navaja with questions

Hello dear members,

I've bought my first navaja but my knowledge about this knives is very rudimentary and I hope that I get some answers to my questions from more knowledgeable members.
So far I know are this sort of navajas associated with France but this one is stamped clearly with Zaragoza which is in the North of Spain. The other inscription I can't read.
My questions: Is it a Spain navaja? How old is it? What is the scales material? Could it be celluloid?
The knife is opened 40,5 cm long, closed it is 22,3 cm, blade 19,5 cm and 4,5 mm thick at the base. Weight is 247 gram.

Thank you in advance for all comments!

Regards,
Detlef
Attached Images
        
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2018, 04:37 PM   #2
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Have found by youtube a very similar one, stamped with Zaragoza at the blade and the handle/scales material seems to be very similar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhDaJExEB4
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2018, 07:09 PM   #3
carlos
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 731
Default

The blade is engraved Jun Valero, in some spanish forums says that valero imports this types of navajas from Thiers, France, to the spanish market.
carlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2018, 09:39 PM   #4
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Thank you Carlos,

Very valuable information! Any age guess?

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2018, 01:55 AM   #5
Chris Evans
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 661
Default

Detlef

As Carlos said, the current informed consensus is that they were made in France and distributed in Spain by Valero Jun. I am inclined to believe that this was indeed the case.

Cheers
Chris
Chris Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2018, 03:26 AM   #6
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Question

Is there a particular reason that some of these French navajas do not have a positive lock when open?
Wouldn't inadvertent closing be a problem in a fight?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2018, 06:42 AM   #7
Chris Evans
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Is there a particular reason that some of these French navajas do not have a positive lock when open?
Wouldn't inadvertent closing be a problem in a fight?
In short, because folding knives with locks were banned and the French imports had to comply with this.

The long answer is somewhat more complex and perhaps you may look up the posts I made years ago on navajas, as this subject was discussed at some length time and again. Have a look at post #9 and #11 of this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...anual+baratero

Cheers
Chris
Chris Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2018, 05:54 PM   #8
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Smile

Thanks for jogging my memory with that thread, Chris.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2018, 06:50 PM   #9
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Thank you Chris!

So it's a "Spanish" navaja in French style. Or a French navaja worked for the Spanish market.

Age early 20th century? Handle scales from celluloid?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2018, 12:22 AM   #10
Helleri
Member
 
Helleri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Boulder Creek, CA.
Posts: 202
Default

Time/place of creation I can't help with. Usage I can help with. You want a book called Manual Of The Baratero: The Art of Handling the Navaja, the Knife, and the Scissors of the Gypsies. It's the oldest and really the only exclusive old treatise on knife fighting, using knives of this type.
Helleri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2018, 02:33 AM   #11
Chris Evans
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Thank you Chris!

So it's a "Spanish" navaja in French style. Or a French navaja worked for the Spanish market.

Age early 20th century? Handle scales from celluloid?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

Regards,
Detlef
Hard to say how widely these knives were distributed, but I very much doubt if they were made exclusively for the Spanish market as their general shape and style was not "Spanish" at all. The French did produce knives similar in style to the ones that were made by Spanish cutlers at the time, but these are numerically in the minority.

This knife was made, according to Forton and other sources, late in the 19th century. The handle scales were usually bone.

I'll add that Forton's books are the definitive resource on these knives and no other extant work even remotely approaches their content. Unfortunately they remain untranslated.

Cheers
Chris
Chris Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2018, 02:41 AM   #12
Chris Evans
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helleri
Time/place of creation I can't help with. Usage I can help with. You want a book called Manual Of The Baratero: The Art of Handling the Navaja, the Knife, and the Scissors of the Gypsies. It's the oldest and really the only exclusive old treatise on knife fighting, using knives of this type.
The MdB was a literary hoax. See my review of the English translation: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...anual+baratero

Cheers
Chris
Chris Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2018, 03:11 AM   #13
Helleri
Member
 
Helleri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Boulder Creek, CA.
Posts: 202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
The MdB was a literary hoax. See my review of the English translation: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...anual+baratero

Cheers
Chris
Interesting read. Hadn't come across this notion before. Though I don't really see how any of that makes it a hoax. There are a lot of treatises that are basically just like this. Containing a lot of martial arts woo. Written for an intellectual audience. Some degree of plagiarism. Even some authors taking aside a few paragraphs to attack the works of other authors.

One is not well advised to read any old instructional with complete faith in it. You take what seems practical, applicable, and reasonable; You criticize and dismiss the rest.

An actual hoax would be if it were written say 10 or 20 years ago and is pretending to date from the period that it does; Not simply being below the standard one subjectively expects or questionable as to some of it's prescriptions.
Helleri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2018, 09:34 AM   #14
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
Hard to say how widely these knives were distributed, but I very much doubt if they were made exclusively for the Spanish market as their general shape and style was not "Spanish" at all. The French did produce knives similar in style to the ones that were made by Spanish cutlers at the time, but these are numerically in the minority.

This knife was made, according to Forton and other sources, late in the 19th century. The handle scales were usually bone.

I'll add that Forton's books are the definitive resource on these knives and no other extant work even remotely approaches their content. Unfortunately they remain untranslated.

Cheers
Chris
Thank you very much Chris!

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2018, 11:15 AM   #15
Chris Evans
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 661
Default

Detief,

Worth considering this superb book of Forton's.

It presents 237 high quality photographs of antique navajas, Spanish, and others. The captions are in Spanish but at the back of the book these are reproduced in English:http://www.libreriagaudi.com/navajas...colecci%C3%B3n

If you shop around, you may get it at a better price.

Cheers
Chris
Chris Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2018, 09:33 PM   #16
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Thank you again Chris!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2018, 09:11 PM   #17
cookyboy1
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 7
Default Navaja

Love your navaga ,I don't know much about these knives so if you and other members can help identify this one I have I would be very greatfull.
Attached Images
  
cookyboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.