Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th October 2018, 06:18 PM   #31
Jon MB
Member
 
Jon MB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 139
Default

Hello All.
I always assumed the extensions to the butt of these guns was related to either:

1) Balance when carried (possible counterwight to barrel),
2) Reloading with the butt placed on sandy/rugged ground ,
3) Possible use as a club.

Obviously over time the original function could have been forgotten and the feature have been maintained as something traditional.

Just a thought on the topic. Nice piece Markku, have a similar one.
Jon MB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2018, 07:57 PM   #32
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon MB
Hello All.
I always assumed the extensions to the butt of these guns was related to either:

1) Balance when carried (possible counterwight to barrel),
2) Reloading with the butt placed on sandy/rugged ground ,
3) Possible use as a club.

Obviously over time the original function could have been forgotten and the feature have been maintained as something traditional.

Just a thought on the topic. Nice piece Markku, have a similar one.

#1 above is unlikely, as the barrel would be much heavier than the (added?)wooden pad.
#2 Why would a wooden pad be added to a wooden stock to avoid contamination by sand? The folds of the skin covering (often seen on these butts) would be more likely to harbor sand than a plain wooden stock.
#3 If the gun ended up being used as a club, the existing stock would be more than sufficient to knock a person out.
Certainly the original reason for the butt "pads" remains a mystery but I do not believe that the reason is any of the above ideas. Most likely as has been said in above posts, the butt is designed to "soften" the recoil, or is just a matter of taste.
Stu

Last edited by kahnjar1 : 15th October 2018 at 12:11 AM.
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2018, 08:46 PM   #33
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 223
Default

Yes probably to soften the recoil as the rifle butt is otherwise fairly narrow (but why convex and not concave?). In addition I notice that these rifles donít have slings attached to them. So the buttpads may also help to prevent the butt from sliding out from under the bend of the arm when riding a horse or camel?
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2018, 09:13 PM   #34
Jon MB
Member
 
Jon MB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
#1 above is unlikely, as the barrel would be much heavier than the (added?)wooden pad.
#2 Why would a wooden pad be added to a wooden barrel to avoid contamination by sand? The folds of the skin covering (often seen on these butts) would be more likely to harbor sand than a plain wooden stock.
#3 If the gun ended up being used as a club, the existing stock would be more than sufficient to knock a person out.
Certainly the original reason for the butt "pads" remains a mystery but I do not believe that the reason is any of the above ideas. Most likely as has been said in above posts, the butt is designed to "soften" the recoil, or is just a matter of taste.
Stu


Stu, in response to your points, (I see you have no doubt handled such pieces)
Point 1. The sizes of these additions vary. Either way the centre of balance would be shifted, which may or may not have been desired by the tribal users.
Point 2. If you look at the base of the stocks with the additions, they are often quite worn. Many examples are not fur covered.
Point 3. If you say so. Hard to know at this point.

'Taste' would here be a question of cultural norms related to weapons.

Elgood mentions absorbsion of recoil but does not elaborate, but it would be interesting to hear explanations from the tribal users of these weapons, or their decendants.

Last edited by Jon MB : 14th October 2018 at 09:24 PM.
Jon MB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2018, 09:37 PM   #35
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon MB
Stu, in response to your points, (I see you have no doubt handled such pieces)
Point 1. The sizes of these additions vary. Either way the centre of balance would be shifted, which may or may not have been desired by the tribal users.
Point 2. If you look at the base of the stocks with the additions, they are often quite worn. Many examples are not fur covered.
Point 3. If you say so. Hard to know at this point.

'Taste' would here be a question of cultural norms related to weapons.

Elgood mentions absorbsion of recoil but does not elaborate, but it would be interesting to hear explanations from the tribal users of these weapons, or their decendants.

Your points may well be right, and I am not saying that you are wrong. Simply that this issue is a discussion point, from which (hopefully) a valid reason for these butt extensions will appear.
Yes I have owned in the past a couple of these guns but stupidly sold them in a weak moment
In answer to your comments, I agree that the sizes do vary BUT they are only made of wood and weigh next to nothing in comparison to the barrel. Yes some are worn but then many old gunstocks show signs of wear. I would guess that these get rougher treatment than (for instance) a European gun. As far as use as a "club" goes I certainly would not like to have one aimed at my head. As you say it's hard to tell but I would not like to be on the receiving end!
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2018, 10:16 PM   #36
Jon MB
Member
 
Jon MB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 139
Default

Thank you Stu.
Jon MB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 12:21 AM   #37
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix
Yes probably to soften the recoil as the rifle butt is otherwise fairly narrow (but why convex and not concave?). In addition I notice that these rifles donít have slings attached to them. So the buttpads may also help to prevent the butt from sliding out from under the bend of the arm when riding a horse or camel?

Hi Victrix,
Not all Middle Eastern guns have sling attachment rings, but the subject gun and also others shown in this thread do have rings on the side for attachment of a sling or retaining strap.
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 03:10 PM   #38
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt
By the way, similar butt can be seen in some Afghan rifles:

The photo here shows the thick leather pads added to the butt sections. This, more than likely was to help reduce more severe recoil. Seems rather obvious.

It's the wood half-circle Arab alteration that is still a mystery to me. I just view it as a styling technique from tradition. Can't come up with a different reason.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 03:33 PM   #39
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman
Hi!

I removed wooden pad-it vas "riveted" with wood nails.
And looks like that..

regards Markku

Interesting. This shows the butt cap was an intentionally added feature.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 03:38 PM   #40
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman
Here some photos more...

regards Markku

Hi Bandook

I could not help but notice the wrap-around type decoration on the butt stock of your gun is almost identical to the butt stock of that duel ignition gun I posted.
Both Coorg guns.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 03:57 PM   #41
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
Giving a bit more thought to the subject, a couple of further reasons for adding the wooden butt pad could be :-

1. From memory, the matchlock I owned had a very heavy long barrel. The butt
pad would be a counterweight to the barrel when holding and firing.

2. Indian people tended to have relatively small frames (ref. tulwar hilts); the
butt pad addition would suit an Arab man with a longer reach.

Here is a rather more "high status" gun, that was in auction in Britain earlier this year, for comparison.

Hi Colin

Item 2 you mention above is something I believe is often over-looked when studying these shoulder guns. With the exception of the thick, leather pads which would seem obvious to reduce recoil, the separate wood butt cap, whether Arab, Coorg, or even Ottoman leads me to believe you are correct. Should the gun be traded or sold, the user could change the Length of Pull (LOP) to accommodate a different shooter by just extending or shortening the butt cap. It's why I believe the Ottoman guns butt stocks were always made in two pieces.
It's also what makes these guns a bit difficult to shoot today. The LOP typically being between 11 and 12 inches. Whereas the European guns would be closer to 13 to 13.5 inches. Today's shooters average 14 inches.
And, as you mention, the grips on the tulwar swords are smaller than their European counterparts. Quite interesting.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2018, 04:43 AM   #42
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,328
Default

To add to the interesting information and discussion above, here is Elgood's take on the Indo-Arab gun, from his book Firearms of the Islamic World (in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait).
Hope you find it of interest.
Stu
Attached Images
      
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2018, 03:00 PM   #43
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,394
Default

Thanks Stu. Most interesting. Glad I have this book.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2018, 03:12 PM   #44
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,226
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
To add to the interesting information and discussion above, here is Elgood's take on the Indo-Arab gun, from his book Firearms of the Islamic World (in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait).
Hope you find it of interest.
Stu


Hi Stu

You may be interested to know that the middle gun you have illustrated (no. 125) now in the Kuwait Museum, was the one once owned by me. Bought in an antique shop in Abu Dhabi and which I foolishly sold later in the UK.

Colin
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2018, 06:16 PM   #45
Jon MB
Member
 
Jon MB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 139
Default

Oh! And I was just about to comment on the beauty that is no. 125...
Jon MB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2018, 07:49 PM   #46
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
Hi Stu

You may be interested to know that the middle gun you have illustrated (no. 125) now in the Kuwait Museum, was the one once owned by me. Bought in an antique shop in Abu Dhabi and which I foolishly sold later in the UK.

Colin

Glad I am not the only one to regret selling stuff
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2018, 03:07 PM   #47
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Glad I am not the only one to regret selling stuff

Me too. LOL

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2018, 09:14 AM   #48
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,226
Default

Found this image from The National Museum of Yemen, Sana'a which might interest. Note the guns in the display case in the background...
Attached Images
 
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2018, 08:05 AM   #49
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
Found this image from The National Museum of Yemen, Sana'a which might interest. Note the guns in the display case in the background...

Great pic Colin and thanks for posting. I wonder with the troubles in Yemen if the museum is still standing!
Interesting that all the long guns shown on display appear to have the butt "extension" which perhaps suggests that the feature COULD be typical only to that region. Certainly the Omani matchlock does not have the butt extension (see pic), and to my knowledge it is the only other type of matchlock peculiar to the Arabian Peninsula.
Stu
Attached Images
  
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2018, 10:18 AM   #50
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
Found this image from The National Museum of Yemen, Sana'a which might interest. Note the guns in the display case in the background...


another one
Attached Images
 
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2018, 05:25 PM   #51
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,346
Default

Here two photos of Ottoman matchlocks in Istanbul.
The link is very clear to me...
Attached Images
  
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2018, 06:19 PM   #52
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,394
Default

Wonderful pics guys. And a very interesting Thread.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2018, 06:58 PM   #53
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,328
Default

A question re the guns shown in the pic posted by KUBUR....... the 2 on the right certainly look to be Turkish as described by the museum item labels, as the butt shape looks typically from that region, however the one on the left is typical of the subject gun of this thread.........mislabeled???
Stu

Last edited by kahnjar1 : 3rd December 2018 at 02:21 AM.
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:57 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.