Elephant Molar?

Bill M · 11th September 2006, 06:14 PM

Is this an actual fossilized material? Stone?

http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...aga_fossil.htm
(this is not my keris, just looking for an example) I have a couple of these, just too lazy to resize the pictures.

Is there any special care for this material when made into a hilt or handle?

Battara · 11th September 2006, 06:33 PM

Yes, Bill, there is a Santa.....Oh sorry.

Yes this is fossil elephant molar ivory. Some care should be shown in that it flakes easily and is more a little more subseptable to cracking than regular ivory due to the different layers. Otherwise, it is fine stuff (unless carving it

).

BSMStar · 11th September 2006, 07:28 PM

My guess is that it is made from Mammoth tooth material. Its a beauty!

Mammoth tooth fossils (yes it is a fossil and not ivory) may not be as old as other "elephant" types like the Mastodon, so the degree of fossilization can vary... they tend to be very brittle (even almost glass like), so I would protect it from impact and you will want to be very careful about how tight you keep the hilt on the keris (snug, but not real tight... or crack)....

http://www.150.si.edu/150trav/discover/d123a.htm

http://www.tellmewhereonearth.com/im...0TOOTH%202.jpg

http://www.acnatsci.org/museum/jeffe...mammuthus.html

Congoblades · 11th September 2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Is this an actual fossilized material? Stone?

Hi, it is hard to believe this is fossilized material. Fossilezed material is lost his color, This looks very colorfull

There are some fossil elephants - and not mammouts like in the link was mentioned - found in Sulawesi and Flores. These are only 800.000 years old, maybe there are not turned into mineral material like most fossils do.

reference:
Dubois collection
Eugene Dubois collected vertebratesat the end of the 19th century in Indonesia. The collection is world famous, because it contains the first fossils (the femur, skullcap and the molar) from Pithecanthropus erectus, nowadays Homo erectus. Besides this, Dubois collected about 40,000-mammal fossil from Sumatra and Java. As there was a discussion about their stratigraphic position, fieldwork is/was carried out in Java, Sumatra, Pakistan and Vietnam. Based on the results of those fieldwork campaigns a new biostratigraphy was developed for Java. As this collection also contains the fossils of pigmy proboscideans (elephants) from Sulawesi and Flores, fieldwork is/was carried out in Sulawesi, Flores and Philippines; all islands with unbalanced endemic island faunas. Every island has its own evolutionary history. Such faunas are also present on the islands of the Mediterranean, like Crete, Kasos, Cyprus etc. On Flores a layer with large Stegodon bones was found together with artefacts. The layer was dated 800.000 years, which indicates that Homo erectus could cross a water-barrier.

from
http://www.naturalis.nl/asp/page.asp...2Fi000847.html

VANDOO · 11th September 2006, 08:58 PM

THE MATERIAL IS STEGODON A EXTINT TYPE OF ELEPHANT LIKE CRITTER. THEY GET A LOT OF THESE FOSSILS IN JAVA AND EVIDENTALY OTHER ISLANDS IN INDONESIA. THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER POSTS ON THIS PERHAPS A SEARCH FOR STEGODON OR FOSSIL IN THE OLD ARCHIVES WOULD TURN THEM UP. THE MATERIAL IS COMPLETELY MINERALIZED (TURNED TO STONE) AND IS NOT TOO HARD TO WORK WITH PROPER LAPIDARY EQUIPMENT AND DOES HAVE NICE COLOR INSIDE THE STONE EVEN THOUGH THE OUTSIDE IS SORT OF GREY IN COLOR. I SAW SOME BEING WORKED IN BALI AND PICKED UP A NICE COMPLETE TOOTH THERE AS WELL AS TWO FINISHED KERIS HANDLES. DUE TO THE DEGREE OF MINERALIZATION I DON'T THINK YOU WILL NEED TO DO ANYTHING TO PRESERVE IT DIRECT SUN MIGHT LESSEN THE COLOR AND IF YOU DROP IT ON A HARD SURFACE IT MAY BREAK BUT OTHER THAN THAT IT SHOULD BE STABLE. CONGRADULATIONS ON THE KERIS THE FOSSIL IS ESPECIALLY ATTRACTIVE.

David · 11th September 2006, 09:00 PM

It looks like this one should be moved to the keris forum.

BSMStar · 12th September 2006, 03:10 AM

Hey VANDOO...

I'll buy that it is Stegolophodon (a Mammoth ancestor). I know it is not Mastodon.

Sometimes they use "dyes" (colorations) on these fossils, to make them more colorful and attractive. They can be kind of pale in color if left natural. The natural teeth do not have this kind of color anyway.

I have one that is not dyed. But it is still pretty.

David · 12th September 2006, 03:21 AM

Just an aside...the example shown may well be dyed, but there is no fast rule that says fossilized material must be colorless or drab. It really all depends on what kind of mineral replaces the original object. I own some very colorful fossils. Sometimes they opalize and give off a rainbow of color.

VANDOO · 12th September 2006, 04:31 AM

THE OLD POST IS STILL THERE IN THE ARCHIVES, TITLED (FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH) 8/27/2003 BY VANDOO. THE FOSSIL MAMMOTH AND MASTODON TEETH AS WELL AS ANCIENT BUFFALOW TEETH AROUND HERE HAVE A BLUE COLOR TO THE ENAMEL WITH BROWNS, BLACK AND YELLOWS TO THE OTHER PARTS. THE ONES FOUND IN FLORIDA IN THE PHOSPHATE MINES ARE SOLID BLACK. I AM NOT SURE WHICH MINERALS CAUSE ALL THE DIFFERENT COLORS, BUT REDS ARE USUALLY DUE TO A LOT OF IRON IN THE ENVIRONMENT. THE INSIDE OF THE FOSSIL WILL HAVE A NATURAL COLOR AND POLISHING IT OR COATING IT WITH A CLEAR FINISH WILL BRING OUT THE COLOR. THE ONES I SAW THEM WORKING ON WERE NOT DYED AS FAR AS I COULD TELL BUT THEY WERE NOT AS COLORFUL AS THE FINISHED ITEMS. THE PICTURE OF MY EXAMPLE SHOWS HOW DULL IT LOOKS IN ITS NATURAL STATE IT HAS AQUIRED A KIND OF PATINA ON THE OUTSIDE.

AS MENTIONED SOME FOSSILS ARE VERY COLORFUL WITH ALL THE COLORS OF THE RAINBOW BUT MOST ARE NOT VERY COLORFUL, IT JUST DEPENDS ON THE TYPE OF MINERALIZATION AND CRITTER.

Congoblades · 12th September 2006, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I own some very colorful fossils. Sometimes they opalize and give off a rainbow of color.

Yes colorfull at the outside of the fossil, fossils take the color of the surounding minerals and/or oxides. Fossils with original colors are extremely rare.
I have some nice fossils myself, look at my website
www.belgiansharkteeth.be
Guy

Isreena · 12th September 2006, 04:31 PM

Hi Guys,

Talking about elephant molar on a keris check out the following website for another fine example

http://tengkurizan.fotopic.net/

Regards

BSMStar · 13th September 2006, 06:37 PM

I’m not saying that any of these examples have been dyed... but I have seen examples that have bright red and bright yellow colorations... not natural iron oxide colors. There is no doubt that some of these fossils can have natural colors that are quite striking in appearance. I have seen a few of these fossils on Keris that are a bit... enhanced. The hilt that I have is a bit pale when compared to even the above examples (it is white to light yellow oxide colors), but it is still attractive.

Battara · 13th September 2006, 07:24 PM

Most of what I have seen in keris and Moro kris have been in the natural mineral colors of whites, tans, yellows, and browns. Here is an example of what I am talking about. It is a fossil molar pommel of a Moro barong (the only one I have seen so far). Oh yeah...it is mine.

11th September 2006, 06:14 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Elephant Molar? Is this an actual fossilized material? Stone? http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...aga_fossil.htm (this is not my keris, just looking for an example) I have a couple of these, just too lazy to resize the pictures. Is there any special care for this material when made into a hilt or handle?

11th September 2006, 07:28 PM	#3
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Sweet! My guess is that it is made from Mammoth tooth material. Its a beauty! Mammoth tooth fossils (yes it is a fossil and not ivory) may not be as old as other "elephant" types like the Mastodon, so the degree of fossilization can vary... they tend to be very brittle (even almost glass like), so I would protect it from impact and you will want to be very careful about how tight you keep the hilt on the keris (snug, but not real tight... or crack).... http://www.150.si.edu/150trav/discover/d123a.htm http://www.tellmewhereonearth.com/im...0TOOTH%202.jpg http://www.acnatsci.org/museum/jeffe...mammuthus.html

12th September 2006, 04:31 PM	#11
Isreena Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9	Elephant Molar Hi Guys, Talking about elephant molar on a keris check out the following website for another fine example http://tengkurizan.fotopic.net/ Regards

13th September 2006, 07:24 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Most of what I have seen in keris and Moro kris have been in the natural mineral colors of whites, tans, yellows, and browns. Here is an example of what I am talking about. It is a fossil molar pommel of a Moro barong (the only one I have seen so far). Oh yeah...it is mine. Attached Images

11th September 2006, 06:33 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes, Bill, there is a Santa.....Oh sorry. Yes this is fossil elephant molar ivory. Some care should be shown in that it flakes easily and is more a little more subseptable to cracking than regular ivory due to the different layers. Otherwise, it is fine stuff (unless carving it ).

11th September 2006, 08:58 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE MATERIAL IS STEGODON A EXTINT TYPE OF ELEPHANT LIKE CRITTER. THEY GET A LOT OF THESE FOSSILS IN JAVA AND EVIDENTALY OTHER ISLANDS IN INDONESIA. THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER POSTS ON THIS PERHAPS A SEARCH FOR STEGODON OR FOSSIL IN THE OLD ARCHIVES WOULD TURN THEM UP. THE MATERIAL IS COMPLETELY MINERALIZED (TURNED TO STONE) AND IS NOT TOO HARD TO WORK WITH PROPER LAPIDARY EQUIPMENT AND DOES HAVE NICE COLOR INSIDE THE STONE EVEN THOUGH THE OUTSIDE IS SORT OF GREY IN COLOR. I SAW SOME BEING WORKED IN BALI AND PICKED UP A NICE COMPLETE TOOTH THERE AS WELL AS TWO FINISHED KERIS HANDLES. DUE TO THE DEGREE OF MINERALIZATION I DON'T THINK YOU WILL NEED TO DO ANYTHING TO PRESERVE IT DIRECT SUN MIGHT LESSEN THE COLOR AND IF YOU DROP IT ON A HARD SURFACE IT MAY BREAK BUT OTHER THAN THAT IT SHOULD BE STABLE. CONGRADULATIONS ON THE KERIS THE FOSSIL IS ESPECIALLY ATTRACTIVE.

11th September 2006, 09:00 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	It looks like this one should be moved to the keris forum.

12th September 2006, 03:10 AM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Hey VANDOO... I'll buy that it is Stegolophodon (a Mammoth ancestor). I know it is not Mastodon. Sometimes they use "dyes" (colorations) on these fossils, to make them more colorful and attractive. They can be kind of pale in color if left natural. The natural teeth do not have this kind of color anyway. I have one that is not dyed. But it is still pretty.

12th September 2006, 03:21 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	Just an aside...the example shown may well be dyed, but there is no fast rule that says fossilized material must be colorless or drab. It really all depends on what kind of mineral replaces the original object. I own some very colorful fossils. Sometimes they opalize and give off a rainbow of color.

12th September 2006, 04:31 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE OLD POST IS STILL THERE IN THE ARCHIVES, TITLED (FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH) 8/27/2003 BY VANDOO. THE FOSSIL MAMMOTH AND MASTODON TEETH AS WELL AS ANCIENT BUFFALOW TEETH AROUND HERE HAVE A BLUE COLOR TO THE ENAMEL WITH BROWNS, BLACK AND YELLOWS TO THE OTHER PARTS. THE ONES FOUND IN FLORIDA IN THE PHOSPHATE MINES ARE SOLID BLACK. I AM NOT SURE WHICH MINERALS CAUSE ALL THE DIFFERENT COLORS, BUT REDS ARE USUALLY DUE TO A LOT OF IRON IN THE ENVIRONMENT. THE INSIDE OF THE FOSSIL WILL HAVE A NATURAL COLOR AND POLISHING IT OR COATING IT WITH A CLEAR FINISH WILL BRING OUT THE COLOR. THE ONES I SAW THEM WORKING ON WERE NOT DYED AS FAR AS I COULD TELL BUT THEY WERE NOT AS COLORFUL AS THE FINISHED ITEMS. THE PICTURE OF MY EXAMPLE SHOWS HOW DULL IT LOOKS IN ITS NATURAL STATE IT HAS AQUIRED A KIND OF PATINA ON THE OUTSIDE. AS MENTIONED SOME FOSSILS ARE VERY COLORFUL WITH ALL THE COLORS OF THE RAINBOW BUT MOST ARE NOT VERY COLORFUL, IT JUST DEPENDS ON THE TYPE OF MINERALIZATION AND CRITTER.

13th September 2006, 06:37 PM	#12
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	I’m not saying that any of these examples have been dyed... but I have seen examples that have bright red and bright yellow colorations... not natural iron oxide colors. There is no doubt that some of these fossils can have natural colors that are quite striking in appearance. I have seen a few of these fossils on Keris that are a bit... enhanced. The hilt that I have is a bit pale when compared to even the above examples (it is white to light yellow oxide colors), but it is still attractive.