Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


View Poll Results: Keris Betok?
1 1 50.00%
2 1 50.00%
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th December 2005, 02:11 PM   #1
rizramon
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 6
Default Keris Betok?

Hi can anyone describe my keris. Refer to "Ensklopedia Keris" - look like keris betok & can describe the pamor.For my keris madura hulu - what does it simbolise? Both keris i bought capture my heart.Thanks
Attached Images
      
rizramon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2005, 02:25 PM   #2
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

Welcome rizramon. IMHO, both these keris are rather new creations. The keris buda or betok looks like it has been artificially aged to give the appearance of antiquity.
You haven't provided a very good angle of view on the ukiran of your keris madura, but it looks like it might be some representation of a wayang character. Pamors are not my strong point, but this one appears to be a variation of golden rain, a fairly popular pamor used on new keris, perhaps because actual old examples of it are not too easy to find.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2005, 06:32 PM   #3
Mans
Member
 
Mans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: East Java
Posts: 137
Send a message via MSN to Mans Send a message via Yahoo to Mans
Default

Hi Rizramon,
I agree with Nechesh that your keris is a new made.

1st keris called Bethok Budha.
It is a new keris, but processed with chemical in order to look as an aged keris.
The pamor called Kulit Semongko (WaterMelon skin), but actually difficult to described it. The pamor was worn-down because chemical processing.
For comparison : http://gallerykeris.fotopic.net/c791072.html (it is a processing keris Jalak Budha).

2nd keris is a quite new keris too. It has the pamor Udan Mas (Golden Rain). Nechesh is right. Very difficult to found the Old keris with pamor Udan Mas. If we found it, we must spend much money to get it. So that why many kerismaker producted the new keris with pamor Udan Mas. (Most wanted pamor )
Unfortunately, you didn't add the overall pics. I don't know how many luk (waves) it has. So that the dapur can't described.
For comparison : http://keris.fotopic.net/c750780.html (it is an Old Keris with pamor Udan Mas. Estimated made from Tuban period - about 17th-18th century).

The Hulu/Hilt (Jawa = Deder/Ukiran), it has the Dragon (Naga) carved and the figure on Wayang (Puppets) story. At Jawa, the Dragon can be symbolized as guardian, protector, guard. But, I don't know the figure of Wayang on this Deder.

Sorry if any mistake.

Rgds,
Mans.
Mans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2005, 08:45 AM   #4
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

Welcome to the forum Rizramon,

Nechesh and Mans are completely right. Both very new keris. The betok is just a fake for the ignorant tourist. The second one is new and definitely made for the touristmarket. Especially the scabbard has nothing to do with a maduran scabbard. But the udan mas pamor comes out very good.

For a beginning collector certainly not a bad buy (I hope you didn't payed to much). Now you have to find a real, no, let I say an authentic keris. Than you can go expanding your collection and compare offered keris weather they are old and original or not. But the way is long and full with traps.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2005, 12:51 PM   #5
rizramon
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 6
Smile Madura's hulu

Hi guys , these are detail pic of my madura hulu.Well im a beginner so need u guys info.For the madura I love the craving & the pamor.For the betok...well i just keep it for my collection.
Attached Images
    
rizramon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2005, 05:03 PM   #6
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

Henk, i know similar discussions have taken place before, but why on Earth would you not consider the Madura keris "authentic"? The sheath carving certainly has little to do with traditional style Madurese wrongko of the, say. 19thC, but this style of carving IS very much in Madurese and i would accept it as a tradition piece for the late 20thC. I certainly wouldn't brand this a "tourist keris", it's just not an "old" keris. It is a decently executed blade, certainly not tourist junk. It is a modern keris for the modern keris collector. Why should we have to wait another hunderd years to accept that (you know....when it becomes old).
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2005, 05:15 PM   #7
CharlesS
Member
 
CharlesS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 1,776
Default

One thing for sure. If the Madurese scabbard and hilt is any indication, the art of fine wood carving is very much alive and well on the islands, even if in this case it's "too much".
CharlesS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2005, 06:18 PM   #8
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

Agreed Charles, and even though this dress might me considered s bit "busy" it is very nicely executed and in line with Madurese carving style and motifs.
BTW, can someone explain the poll to me at the top of the page. What am i voting for exactly by picking #1 or #2?
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2005, 07:50 PM   #9
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

Nechesh,

It certainly isn't my intention to take the pleasure away by fellow collectors.

I don't say anything about the blade than that it is a new blade. It certainly is a well executed blade and you can use it in comparing it with other blades to see the differences between old and new blades.
I don't have problems with new blades at all. In my collection I do have a few keris with new blades. Lovely and well made. I'm very glad that today still beautiful keris are made for us collectors to expand our collection.

Even the ukiran is no problem. As a matter of fact fitting perfectly on a maduran keris and a nice piece of carving.

But the scabbard is really too much. The "authenticity" is a matter of taste and taste is a personel matter. For me it is the scabbard that takes all the authenticity away from the entire piece. I know that the maduran carving is rich and well executed and I have no problems with new traditions. But I would prefer a more "traditionally" carved maduran scabbard for this piece.

In my opinion a keris in such a scabbard is made for export purposes only.
I would like to compare it with those famous KNIL keris. A real keris but dressed in a cheap scabbard and ukiran for the dutch soldiers to bring home as a souvenir. Those keris are still mentioned as the first tourist keris. Although I don't have such a keris in my collection, such a keris with that story should be a part of any keris collection. And maybe I have to get used to a more fancy madura dress of the late 20th century. But that's my problem, I'm rather traditional and old fashioned
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2005, 10:17 PM   #10
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

I understand what you are saying Henk, but you must admit this is fairly good carving. The carving on those old Dutch solider keris (which i agree are collectable for their place in history if nothing else) usually doesn't even approach this carving standard. I am not so certain one can be sure that this sheath was carved with only export in mind.
Welcome to the "new traditionalists"!
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2005, 03:00 AM   #11
Mans
Member
 
Mans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: East Java
Posts: 137
Send a message via MSN to Mans Send a message via Yahoo to Mans
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henk
Nechesh,
......
But the scabbard is really too much. The "authenticity" is a matter of taste and taste is a personel matter.


I'm 100% agree that the taste is a personal matter.
Also agree that Rizramon scabbard's is nice executed.

Just for warming this discussion, here I posted some of Madura wrangka's
1st and 2nd are new made / 3rd and 4th are old.
The same thing on all of the wrangka is the rich carved. It shown the part of Maduranese sparkling culture.
Attached Images
    
Mans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2005, 04:52 AM   #12
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

I think the examples Mans posted show pretty clearly that Rizramon's Madurese dress is well within the bounds of traditional and authentic work from that area. No, you don't have to like it, but i still would maintain that there is nothing about this keris that insists that it would only be made for a foriegn market.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2005, 05:16 AM   #13
Mans
Member
 
Mans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: East Java
Posts: 137
Send a message via MSN to Mans Send a message via Yahoo to Mans
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
..... but i still would maintain that there is nothing about this keris that insists that it would only be made for a foriegn market.


Absolutely right Nech
So far, I never known the seller or keris shops who declare the keris just specifically for Foreign Market or Export Only
Mans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2005, 08:45 AM   #14
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mans
Absolutely right Nech
So far, I never known the seller or keris shops who declare the keris just specifically for Foreign Market or Export Only


I wouldn't declare either something else when I'm in business .

Mans, The pictures of the three maduran keris are the maduran keris I mean. Rich carved but traditional madura. It's just my taste and i'm so glad that everybody agrees that that is personal
Would you show me a picture of the keris like those three maduran? The image is better to compare then.

And maybe Nechesh gets me over the edge to the club of "new traditionalists", but it takes time to get used to it. But when the time is there i might get real enthiousiastic about the antiques of tomorrow.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2005, 03:06 PM   #15
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

Just to be completely clear Henk, this new dress isn't quite to my tastes either, but i do see it as a continuation of the fine tradition of Madurese carving, an evolution if you will, for better or for worse.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:14 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.