Identification and dating of Flintlock pistols

ozhunter · 13th March 2016, 11:43 PM

Hello all

My first post here after lurking for a while.

I have a couple of Flintlock pistols that I beleive are Albanian and French made for Turkey, that I would like help with proper identification and dating.

Is the the correct forum to post my questions and pictures?

Regards

rickystl · 14th March 2016, 09:46 AM

Hi ozhunter. Welcome to the Forum. From your description, this should be the correct Forum. Please post photos and any information you have. Thanks, Rick.

ozhunter · 14th March 2016, 12:15 PM

OK then. The first one, I think, is an Albanian Miguelet (Rat Tail) flintlock pistol. Have I got this right?

Is there a way to tell a fake from the real deal?

There are no markings that I can find on the pistol.

If it appears to be a legitimate piece, how do you determine what era it is from?

Many thanks

ozhunter · 14th March 2016, 12:22 PM

This one I beleive to be of French manufactured pistol, for Turkey or maybe more broadly the Ottoman empire. How close did I get?

I am going to get better photos of the marks on the top of the barrel later in the week.

Once again, is there any chance of picking a fake from the real thing.

What period do you think it is from?

Forgive the quality of the last photo, I'll get a better one this week. I only added it because of the detail at the root of the spring.

Many thanks

Ian · 14th March 2016, 02:45 PM

Hello ozhunter. Yes, you are in the correct place. Welcome to the Forum.

Ian.

fernando · 14th March 2016, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozhunter

OK then. The first one, I think, is an Albanian Miguelet (Rat Tail) flintlock pistol. Have I got this right?

Yes, you are right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozhunter

Is there a way to tell a fake from the real deal?

It looks real

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozhunter

There are no markings that I can find on the pistol.

Markings only appear from time to time; and some times they may not make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozhunter

If it appears to be a legitimate piece, how do you determine what era it is from?

second half 19th century ?

... but let others correct me where i am wrong

.

Kubur · 14th March 2016, 09:26 PM

Hi,
Rick is probably the best member to answer.
Yes your first pistol is a very good rat tail.
The second one is a so-called mediterranean pistol, French, Italian for export I dont know... In good condition but not a masterpiece. I prefer your rattail, both 19th c. of course.
Best,
Kubur

ozhunter · 15th March 2016, 12:03 AM

Thanks for the replies. I forgot to add that they both have the false ramrod. One day I will procure a ramrod that is from the same era, for these pistols.

Andreas · 16th March 2016, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozhunter

Thanks for the replies. I forgot to add that they both have the false ramrod. One day I will procure a ramrod that is from the same era, for these pistols.

Are you certain the ramrod on the rat-tail is a false one? I can't tell from the picture, but Elgood mentions in The Arms of Greece etc that these Central Albanian pistols have invariably (his word) working metal ramrods.
Andreas

Kubur · 16th March 2016, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Are you certain the ramrod on the rat-tail is a false one? I can't tell from the picture, but Elgood mentions in The Arms of Greece etc that these Central Albanian pistols have invariably (his word) working metal ramrods.
Andreas

Hi Andreas,

I have the same and it's impossible to remove.
They did the same fake ramrods in Morocco.
Moroccan pistols have a fake metal ramrod...

Best,
Kubur

ozhunter · 16th March 2016, 02:00 PM

The ramrod on the Rat Tail, if it was supposed to be a working rod, is stuck fast, and I don't feel inclined to try any harder than I have to extract it for fear of damaging the pistol.

I am still curious about the stamps on the barrel of the wood stocked pistol. I will get some good close ups of it and post them to see if anybody recognises them.

fernando · 16th March 2016, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Are you certain the ramrod on the rat-tail is a false one? I can't tell from the picture, but Elgood mentions in The Arms of Greece etc that these Central Albanian pistols have invariably (his word) working metal ramrods.
Andreas

Some misunderstanding Andreas .
Ramrods fitted in rat tail pistols are practically always false; sometimes don't even com off. Actual ramrods were (adorned) units that they carried in their belts; just can't remember the name of those ...

fernando · 16th March 2016, 03:13 PM

See post #14 ...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19565

Andreas · 16th March 2016, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Some misunderstanding Andreas .
Ramrods fitted in rat tail pistols are practically always false; sometimes don't even com off. Actual ramrods were (adorned) units that they carried in their belts; just can't remember the name of those ...

Hi Fernando,
You mean a harbi or suma. False ramrods are certainly a feature of Balkan pistols. I quoted Elgood as he explicitly states that Central Albanian brass pistols are an exception, due to assumed Italian influences.
Andreas

ozhunter · 19th March 2016, 07:29 AM

Here are closeups of the marks on the wooden stocked pistol.

Can anyone identify them?

Regards

rickystl · 19th March 2016, 07:07 PM

Hi OzHunter. Again, welcome to the Forum. Two very nice pistols that appear in very good condition. Generally, I agree with everyone above.
FIRST PISTOL: Yes, this is what collectors generally identify as an Albanian Rat Tail Pistol. And this one is typical of the style. Probably made during the second or third quarter of the 19th Century. What Andreas says that Elgood mentions in his book is as he mentions. However, I have never seen or examined (many) any of these Albanian brass stocked pistols with a full length working ramrod. They were all short, false, iron rods. (I believe the brass rods occassionaly encountered are later replacements). In fact, the short rods on these Albanian pistols are often tapered on the end to almost a point. It's my personal opinion that this was done to be utilized as a vent pick. It's also why the rods are difficult to remove now. The point end being driven in similar to a nail by someone not knowing what they are doing. However, I've found a fairly simple way to remove these rods. Let me know.

SECOND PISTOL: This is what collectors generally call an Ottoman Horse (Kubar) Pistol. And is typical of the style you encounter. The grip area of the stock on your's has the somewhat lesser encountered 18th Century Italian shape versus the more common 18th Century French style. The gun was likely made at one of the many gun making centers in the Balkans. Probably second or third quarter of the 19th Century. Again, the false ramrod being commonplace. If you can remove the lock on this pistol and take some photos of the inside, we would have a better clue if it was a European export or a locally made copy. The barrels are almost impossible to tell if imported or locally made without removing the breech plug. I've found the threads on the breach to be done different on locally made barrels vs European. These pistols were made by the thousands, often under contract with the Ottoman Empire. Unless made as a pair, you never see any two alike. Whereas the Albanian Rat Tail styles look almost identical in every one you encounter.

As mentioned above, it was preferred to load these pistols with a seperate rod (Suma) attached with a throng around the neck and tucked into the sash. I can tell you from personal shooting experience that it is easier and faster to load these pistols with a seperate, larger diameter rod than a thin metal or wood rod from under the stock, which is more prone to bending or breaking. This would be double true if re-loading from horseback. Although I've not tried that one.

Rick

ozhunter · 19th March 2016, 10:25 PM

Thank you for the detailed reply Rick. Most informative.

My posts are still being vetted, so I don't know in what order you will see the posts, but what do you make of the two "proofs" that I posted closeups of?

rickystl · 20th March 2016, 05:36 PM

Hi Oz.

Unfortunately, makers ID and marks are not one of my strong points. And I can't read Arabic, so that makes it even more so.

But there are others on this Forum who can translate, and possibly be of assistance.
It is very difficult, if not impossible to identify the final gunshop that assembled these Ottoman style pistols. Often, the barrels were made in one shop, the locks in another, and the stocks and decoration in yet another. And that even assumes all three items were made locally. Some parts may have been imported, which adds to the confusion. The barrel could have been made locally and stamped with the maker's mark. (Which I believe is the case here) Or, the barrel could have been imported, and stamped locally. The same situation with the lock. And often, the lock (and barrels) would have a spurious European type name stamped or engraved on the lockplate, to give the false impression that the gun was from a European origin, which the maker would probably charge a premium price to the unsuspecting prospective buyer. So it can all be very confusing studying these guns. There is simply no "paper trail" tracing the origin of these pistols, unlike their European counterparts. In fact, the gunsmiths and shops often did not want the gun traceable, since they were sold to both friend and foe alike.

Without seeing the inside of your lock, there is one clue that the lock was locally made. Notice the top jaw was made with a slight downward curve. I believe this was done to allow the leather holding the flint in the jaws to be wrapped around the flint in horizontal fashion vs vertical as shown. I've only seen this top jaw design on Ottoman style/built locks. I've never seen this feature on European built locks. That's likely the reason the top screw doesn't sit exactly flush on the top jaw. See photo below.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling on here.

A very attractive pistol.

Rick.

14th March 2016, 12:15 PM	#3
ozhunter Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 8	OK then. The first one, I think, is an Albanian Miguelet (Rat Tail) flintlock pistol. Have I got this right? Is there a way to tell a fake from the real deal? There are no markings that I can find on the pistol. If it appears to be a legitimate piece, how do you determine what era it is from? Many thanks Attached Images

14th March 2016, 12:22 PM	#4
ozhunter Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 8	This one I beleive to be of French manufactured pistol, for Turkey or maybe more broadly the Ottoman empire. How close did I get? I am going to get better photos of the marks on the top of the barrel later in the week. Once again, is there any chance of picking a fake from the real thing. What period do you think it is from? Forgive the quality of the last photo, I'll get a better one this week. I only added it because of the detail at the root of the spring. Many thanks Attached Images

19th March 2016, 07:29 AM	#15
ozhunter Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 8	Here are closeups of the marks on the wooden stocked pistol. Can anyone identify them? Regards Attached Images

20th March 2016, 05:36 PM	#18
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Oz. Unfortunately, makers ID and marks are not one of my strong points. And I can't read Arabic, so that makes it even more so. But there are others on this Forum who can translate, and possibly be of assistance. It is very difficult, if not impossible to identify the final gunshop that assembled these Ottoman style pistols. Often, the barrels were made in one shop, the locks in another, and the stocks and decoration in yet another. And that even assumes all three items were made locally. Some parts may have been imported, which adds to the confusion. The barrel could have been made locally and stamped with the maker's mark. (Which I believe is the case here) Or, the barrel could have been imported, and stamped locally. The same situation with the lock. And often, the lock (and barrels) would have a spurious European type name stamped or engraved on the lockplate, to give the false impression that the gun was from a European origin, which the maker would probably charge a premium price to the unsuspecting prospective buyer. So it can all be very confusing studying these guns. There is simply no "paper trail" tracing the origin of these pistols, unlike their European counterparts. In fact, the gunsmiths and shops often did not want the gun traceable, since they were sold to both friend and foe alike. Without seeing the inside of your lock, there is one clue that the lock was locally made. Notice the top jaw was made with a slight downward curve. I believe this was done to allow the leather holding the flint in the jaws to be wrapped around the flint in horizontal fashion vs vertical as shown. I've only seen this top jaw design on Ottoman style/built locks. I've never seen this feature on European built locks. That's likely the reason the top screw doesn't sit exactly flush on the top jaw. See photo below. Anyway, I'll stop rambling on here. A very attractive pistol. Rick. Attached Images

13th March 2016, 11:43 PM	#1
ozhunter Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 8	Identification and dating of Flintlock pistols Hello all My first post here after lurking for a while. I have a couple of Flintlock pistols that I beleive are Albanian and French made for Turkey, that I would like help with proper identification and dating. Is the the correct forum to post my questions and pictures? Regards

14th March 2016, 09:46 AM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi ozhunter. Welcome to the Forum. From your description, this should be the correct Forum. Please post photos and any information you have. Thanks, Rick.

14th March 2016, 02:45 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	Hello ozhunter. Yes, you are in the correct place. Welcome to the Forum. Ian.

14th March 2016, 09:26 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, Rick is probably the best member to answer. Yes your first pistol is a very good rat tail. The second one is a so-called mediterranean pistol, French, Italian for export I dont know... In good condition but not a masterpiece. I prefer your rattail, both 19th c. of course. Best, Kubur

15th March 2016, 12:03 AM	#8
ozhunter Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 8	Thanks for the replies. I forgot to add that they both have the false ramrod. One day I will procure a ramrod that is from the same era, for these pistols.

16th March 2016, 02:00 PM	#11
ozhunter Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 8	The ramrod on the Rat Tail, if it was supposed to be a working rod, is stuck fast, and I don't feel inclined to try any harder than I have to extract it for fear of damaging the pistol. I am still curious about the stamps on the barrel of the wood stocked pistol. I will get some good close ups of it and post them to see if anybody recognises them.

16th March 2016, 03:13 PM	#13
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	See post #14 ... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19565

19th March 2016, 07:07 PM	#16
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi OzHunter. Again, welcome to the Forum. Two very nice pistols that appear in very good condition. Generally, I agree with everyone above. FIRST PISTOL: Yes, this is what collectors generally identify as an Albanian Rat Tail Pistol. And this one is typical of the style. Probably made during the second or third quarter of the 19th Century. What Andreas says that Elgood mentions in his book is as he mentions. However, I have never seen or examined (many) any of these Albanian brass stocked pistols with a full length working ramrod. They were all short, false, iron rods. (I believe the brass rods occassionaly encountered are later replacements). In fact, the short rods on these Albanian pistols are often tapered on the end to almost a point. It's my personal opinion that this was done to be utilized as a vent pick. It's also why the rods are difficult to remove now. The point end being driven in similar to a nail by someone not knowing what they are doing. However, I've found a fairly simple way to remove these rods. Let me know. SECOND PISTOL: This is what collectors generally call an Ottoman Horse (Kubar) Pistol. And is typical of the style you encounter. The grip area of the stock on your's has the somewhat lesser encountered 18th Century Italian shape versus the more common 18th Century French style. The gun was likely made at one of the many gun making centers in the Balkans. Probably second or third quarter of the 19th Century. Again, the false ramrod being commonplace. If you can remove the lock on this pistol and take some photos of the inside, we would have a better clue if it was a European export or a locally made copy. The barrels are almost impossible to tell if imported or locally made without removing the breech plug. I've found the threads on the breach to be done different on locally made barrels vs European. These pistols were made by the thousands, often under contract with the Ottoman Empire. Unless made as a pair, you never see any two alike. Whereas the Albanian Rat Tail styles look almost identical in every one you encounter. As mentioned above, it was preferred to load these pistols with a seperate rod (Suma) attached with a throng around the neck and tucked into the sash. I can tell you from personal shooting experience that it is easier and faster to load these pistols with a seperate, larger diameter rod than a thin metal or wood rod from under the stock, which is more prone to bending or breaking. This would be double true if re-loading from horseback. Although I've not tried that one. Rick

19th March 2016, 10:25 PM	#17
ozhunter Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 8	Thank you for the detailed reply Rick. Most informative. My posts are still being vetted, so I don't know in what order you will see the posts, but what do you make of the two "proofs" that I posted closeups of?