Wootz Shamshir for Comments

A.alnakkas · 22nd March 2012, 08:49 PM

Hey Guys,

Got this wootz shamshir recently, it had superficial rust so I just cleaned + oiled it. I didnt etch it or anything but the wootz pattern shows. The inscription is "kalb Ali" but I am not 100% sure... The tip seems to be hardened and of different colour around the edge.. any ideas?

The hilt seems similar to the general arab style (Badawi and Syrian) but it does not show a pommel cap nor any evidence of it, some suggest that this style is Iraqi but am not sure. The black side of the hilt slabs seems to be a recent replacement. Will add pictures.

This is my first wootz shamshir so be easy on me :P (sorry about the terrible photos)

A.alnakkas · 22nd March 2012, 09:05 PM

I think this side of the hilt is the older one.

Runjeet Singh · 22nd March 2012, 11:51 PM

Hi,

Lovely piece, its always nice when you have the original wootz pattern under the muck, it means you don't have to get your hands dirty!

Don't worry, your photos aren't too bad, you did well to show the pattern. Next time try using natural light (outside). Either in slightly overcast conditions, or if it is bright and sunny (I'm guessing it will be where you are!) then in a slightly shaded area.

Good luck,
Runjeet

Dom · 23rd March 2012, 12:30 AM

Salam Aleikum Hadj Lotfi
fantastic "Johar" ... really I love this wootz
but do an effort to offer us a pics more clear
please, use a numeric camera, not a smart-phone

I should like to see "acutely" all details

Mabrouk alf mabrouk, you are a lucky guy

à +

Dom

Gavin Nugent · 23rd March 2012, 02:53 AM

Congrats Lofty, you wanted it, now you have it!! Nice blade.

Gav

AJ1356 · 23rd March 2012, 02:45 PM

Very Nice, nice pattern on the blade

Iain · 23rd March 2012, 02:53 PM

Beautiful piece, really glad you got one at last! What kind of age would this blade have?

A.alnakkas · 23rd March 2012, 03:08 PM

Hey guys

Thanks alot, I have no idea how old the blade is but I think the hilt slabs are newer especially the black side. Makes me wonder if I should train my hand into making stuff maybe I'll end up restoring blades :P

I used my digital camera but somehow I cant get it to focus sometimes.. it wasnt always like that so maybe its about time to buy a professional camera to photograph swords with!

Lotfy

Atlantia · 23rd March 2012, 06:34 PM

BEAUTIFUL!!! Well done indeed

Ferguson · 24th March 2012, 12:16 AM

Very nice piece. Congratulations! I hope you don't mind that I lightened one of the pictures a bit. Beautiful. Just beautiful.

Steve

A.alnakkas · 24th March 2012, 12:49 AM

Thanks all,

Feel free to improve pictures, Ferguson!

A.alnakkas · 24th March 2012, 12:51 AM

So, do you think the hilt is missing a pommel cap?

A.alnakkas · 24th March 2012, 01:03 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12888

This shamshir is owned by Gene (Atlantia) and I think its the same maker. The inscription is identical to mine, atleast whats written inside.

Dom · 24th March 2012, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

So, do you think the hilt is missing a pommel cap?

at last beautiful pic's, for a really beatiful Shamshir, THANKS Lotfi

at your question, my answer will be "no", coze,
no mark at all reminded that something was fit into each other

à +

Dom

RSWORD · 24th March 2012, 01:52 PM

You have a very nice and fairly early wootz blade with a beautiful pattern. The yelman and long, almost spear-like point indicate an earlier blade. In my opinion, this blade could be 17th or 18th century. The blade profile seems to be wider at the hilt with good taper and if the blade has good heft/weight these would be other indications of an earlier blade. Of course, with the yelman, I would refer to this blade as a kilij. It is an earlier kilij form. I wouldn't worry about whether or not the grip slabs are original or not as the blade is the real treasure.

A.alnakkas · 24th March 2012, 02:12 PM

Hey RSWORD, thanks!

Yes the blade is rather thick and has some good weight to it. Its very interesting that it could be that old. Is it common for such blades to have hardened edge?

I wont be touching the hilt slabs then as I think the repair is an old one. But considering that Kuwait has lots of dust storms.. I may make a scabbard just for protection.

RSWORD · 25th March 2012, 02:11 AM

Yes, you do find shamshir and kilij blades that were heat treated. When a blade is in new polish, this will often show up as a darker zone along the cutting edge, analogous to a hamon.

A.alnakkas · 25th March 2012, 06:53 PM

Thanks alot for the information, RSWORD.

Does having a false edge classifies a blade as a kilij or does it have to be a raised false edge?

Does the blade included on this post counts as a kilij?

ALEX · 26th March 2012, 11:40 AM

I also like the blade and wootz pattern.
I agree with RSWORD that it's an earlier blade. My only comment is that I do not see it as "earliy kilij form", if by "early" one meant pre-18th Century.
To me, this particular "yelman" looks more like a false edge, which could have been added/filed later. The "early" blades with yelmans of that form appear around 16th C, and this one does not look that old

I'd not call both swords A.alnakkas shows as Kilijes.

A.alnakkas · 26th March 2012, 01:21 PM

hey Alex,

excellent input. I have nothing more to add except that the shamshir's false edge is likely to be as early as the blade. The heat treatment also covers the false edge but could the heat treatment be done at a later time?

Lotfy

ALEX · 26th March 2012, 04:24 PM

Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

A.alnakkas · 27th March 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

Interesting. I think its more rational to think the false edge is original because it would make no sense for the smith to heat treat the dull part of the blade. And it just happens that the heat treatment ends where the false edge ends.

Any idea where such a hilt might be used? Am thinking Syria but certain features are not there..

ALEX · 27th March 2012, 02:58 PM

Lotfy, nice discussion - thank you. I agree about the false edge. It is likely of original design based on the heat treated pattern.
The hilt is not too specific to any particular region. It certainly could be Syrian, or any surrounding country:-)

ALEX · 27th March 2012, 06:34 PM

Here are some blades with similar "yelmans" (especially top two), attrubuted to 16, 17 and 18 Centuries. While the feature is similar, the taper, curvature and overall profile of Lotfy's blade is slightly different IMHO. As the difference of several centuries in evolution of the blade is not significant - I could be wrong:-)

A.alnakkas · 27th March 2012, 07:28 PM

Thanks ALEX for the valuable information. Yes, those blades do show similarity to mine. Could the difference be the result of years of sharpening on mine? There is no way to validly compare with a photo, so do you have a similar example?

As for the hilt, yeah it could be from anywhere :/ any examples of Iraqi hilts? Or maybe they are just like the Syrian or badawi ones.. These variations need a professional study!

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2012, 06:46 PM

Hi Lofty,
This is indeed a great blade, and as Rick has wisely noted, the blade is the true treasure. Hilting and refurbishing is part of the blade's being through its working life, which in many if not most cases covered many generations.
I doubt there was a pommel cap, which of course was most associated with the true Persian shamshirs on which these collective types were based.

If the inscription is indeed Kalb Ali, it is one I have seen on blades which have been diffused via Central Asian trade routes and I have seen one of these blades with that inscription on a Khevsur sabre (from the high regions of Causasus in Georgia). I have also seen these on the typically austere Afghan versions which I believe even have neen seen with wood grips.

The 'false edge' is not as far as I have known been regarded as a true yelman, and these type edge features are I believe a Central Asian affinity. I have seen them on Turkmen and other Central Asian shamshirs. The true Persian shamshir blade is radiused to the point and as far as I have known does not have false edge. The yelman is typically an expanded point at the tip and portion of blade end which is to actually add weight to the blade to add impetus to the force of the draw cut. The term 'kilij' has I think proven to be too nebulus for accurate classification of a sword as it is as far as I know the Turkish word for sword used often collectively in various degree.

I am inclined to think of this wonderfully intriguing example as from Central Asian regions, though it would be difficult to place distinct geographic region as it has clearly traveled these fascinating trade routes. I agree with the earlier period for the blade, and this one likely has lots of stories, the best kind of all...a sabre of mystery and a beautiful example!
Nicely done Lofty! Congratulations!

All the best,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 4th April 2012, 06:00 AM

Hey Jim,

Thanks alot for the precious information!

I dont know much about central Asian arms but imho, the false edge is also existant on Arabian arms. My 2 saifs have false edges but one is with a likely european blade.

As you said, those blades probably have travelled around but I think the answer to the sword's origin (or last user..) lies in the hilt. I have seen this type of hilt before but on blades that were attributed to Iraq and Syria. Not sure how correct is that and my source was a Kuwaiti antique dealer.

Not having the reference books is handicapping my research about this blade, so would appreciate pictured examples of similar hilts.

22nd March 2012, 08:49 PM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Wootz Shamshir for Comments Hey Guys, Got this wootz shamshir recently, it had superficial rust so I just cleaned + oiled it. I didnt etch it or anything but the wootz pattern shows. The inscription is "kalb Ali" but I am not 100% sure... The tip seems to be hardened and of different colour around the edge.. any ideas? The hilt seems similar to the general arab style (Badawi and Syrian) but it does not show a pommel cap nor any evidence of it, some suggest that this style is Iraqi but am not sure. The black side of the hilt slabs seems to be a recent replacement. Will add pictures. This is my first wootz shamshir so be easy on me :P (sorry about the terrible photos) Attached Images

22nd March 2012, 09:05 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	I think this side of the hilt is the older one. Attached Images

24th March 2012, 12:16 AM	#10
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Very nice piece. Congratulations! I hope you don't mind that I lightened one of the pictures a bit. Beautiful. Just beautiful. Steve Attached Images

24th March 2012, 12:49 AM	#11
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Thanks all, Feel free to improve pictures, Ferguson! Attached Images

24th March 2012, 12:51 AM	#12
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	So, do you think the hilt is missing a pommel cap? Attached Images

22nd March 2012, 11:51 PM	#3
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Hi, Lovely piece, its always nice when you have the original wootz pattern under the muck, it means you don't have to get your hands dirty! Don't worry, your photos aren't too bad, you did well to show the pattern. Next time try using natural light (outside). Either in slightly overcast conditions, or if it is bright and sunny (I'm guessing it will be where you are!) then in a slightly shaded area. Good luck, Runjeet

23rd March 2012, 12:30 AM	#4
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Salam Aleikum Hadj Lotfi fantastic "Johar" ... really I love this wootz but do an effort to offer us a pics more clear please, use a numeric camera, not a smart-phone I should like to see "acutely" all details Mabrouk alf mabrouk, you are a lucky guy à + Dom

23rd March 2012, 02:53 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Congrats Lofty, you wanted it, now you have it!! Nice blade. Gav

23rd March 2012, 02:45 PM	#6
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	Very Nice, nice pattern on the blade

23rd March 2012, 02:53 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	Beautiful piece, really glad you got one at last! What kind of age would this blade have?

23rd March 2012, 03:08 PM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Hey guys Thanks alot, I have no idea how old the blade is but I think the hilt slabs are newer especially the black side. Makes me wonder if I should train my hand into making stuff maybe I'll end up restoring blades :P I used my digital camera but somehow I cant get it to focus sometimes.. it wasnt always like that so maybe its about time to buy a professional camera to photograph swords with! Lotfy

23rd March 2012, 06:34 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	BEAUTIFUL!!! Well done indeed

24th March 2012, 01:03 AM	#13
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12888 This shamshir is owned by Gene (Atlantia) and I think its the same maker. The inscription is identical to mine, atleast whats written inside. Attached Images

24th March 2012, 01:52 PM	#15
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	You have a very nice and fairly early wootz blade with a beautiful pattern. The yelman and long, almost spear-like point indicate an earlier blade. In my opinion, this blade could be 17th or 18th century. The blade profile seems to be wider at the hilt with good taper and if the blade has good heft/weight these would be other indications of an earlier blade. Of course, with the yelman, I would refer to this blade as a kilij. It is an earlier kilij form. I wouldn't worry about whether or not the grip slabs are original or not as the blade is the real treasure.

24th March 2012, 02:12 PM	#16
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Hey RSWORD, thanks! Yes the blade is rather thick and has some good weight to it. Its very interesting that it could be that old. Is it common for such blades to have hardened edge? I wont be touching the hilt slabs then as I think the repair is an old one. But considering that Kuwait has lots of dust storms.. I may make a scabbard just for protection.

25th March 2012, 02:11 AM	#17
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Yes, you do find shamshir and kilij blades that were heat treated. When a blade is in new polish, this will often show up as a darker zone along the cutting edge, analogous to a hamon.

25th March 2012, 06:53 PM	#18
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Thanks alot for the information, RSWORD. Does having a false edge classifies a blade as a kilij or does it have to be a raised false edge? Does the blade included on this post counts as a kilij? Attached Images Last edited by A.alnakkas; 25th March 2012 at 07:09 PM.

26th March 2012, 11:40 AM	#19
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	I also like the blade and wootz pattern. I agree with RSWORD that it's an earlier blade. My only comment is that I do not see it as "earliy kilij form", if by "early" one meant pre-18th Century. To me, this particular "yelman" looks more like a false edge, which could have been added/filed later. The "early" blades with yelmans of that form appear around 16th C, and this one does not look that old I'd not call both swords A.alnakkas shows as Kilijes.

26th March 2012, 01:21 PM	#20
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	hey Alex, excellent input. I have nothing more to add except that the shamshir's false edge is likely to be as early as the blade. The heat treatment also covers the false edge but could the heat treatment be done at a later time? Lotfy

26th March 2012, 04:24 PM	#21
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

27th March 2012, 02:58 PM	#23
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Lotfy, nice discussion - thank you. I agree about the false edge. It is likely of original design based on the heat treated pattern. The hilt is not too specific to any particular region. It certainly could be Syrian, or any surrounding country:-)

27th March 2012, 06:34 PM	#24
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Here are some blades with similar "yelmans" (especially top two), attrubuted to 16, 17 and 18 Centuries. While the feature is similar, the taper, curvature and overall profile of Lotfy's blade is slightly different IMHO. As the difference of several centuries in evolution of the blade is not significant - I could be wrong:-) Attached Images

27th March 2012, 07:28 PM	#25
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Thanks ALEX for the valuable information. Yes, those blades do show similarity to mine. Could the difference be the result of years of sharpening on mine? There is no way to validly compare with a photo, so do you have a similar example? As for the hilt, yeah it could be from anywhere :/ any examples of Iraqi hilts? Or maybe they are just like the Syrian or badawi ones.. These variations need a professional study!

3rd April 2012, 06:46 PM	#26
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Lofty, This is indeed a great blade, and as Rick has wisely noted, the blade is the true treasure. Hilting and refurbishing is part of the blade's being through its working life, which in many if not most cases covered many generations. I doubt there was a pommel cap, which of course was most associated with the true Persian shamshirs on which these collective types were based. If the inscription is indeed Kalb Ali, it is one I have seen on blades which have been diffused via Central Asian trade routes and I have seen one of these blades with that inscription on a Khevsur sabre (from the high regions of Causasus in Georgia). I have also seen these on the typically austere Afghan versions which I believe even have neen seen with wood grips. The 'false edge' is not as far as I have known been regarded as a true yelman, and these type edge features are I believe a Central Asian affinity. I have seen them on Turkmen and other Central Asian shamshirs. The true Persian shamshir blade is radiused to the point and as far as I have known does not have false edge. The yelman is typically an expanded point at the tip and portion of blade end which is to actually add weight to the blade to add impetus to the force of the draw cut. The term 'kilij' has I think proven to be too nebulus for accurate classification of a sword as it is as far as I know the Turkish word for sword used often collectively in various degree. I am inclined to think of this wonderfully intriguing example as from Central Asian regions, though it would be difficult to place distinct geographic region as it has clearly traveled these fascinating trade routes. I agree with the earlier period for the blade, and this one likely has lots of stories, the best kind of all...a sabre of mystery and a beautiful example! Nicely done Lofty! Congratulations! All the best, Jim

4th April 2012, 06:00 AM	#27
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Hey Jim, Thanks alot for the precious information! I dont know much about central Asian arms but imho, the false edge is also existant on Arabian arms. My 2 saifs have false edges but one is with a likely european blade. As you said, those blades probably have travelled around but I think the answer to the sword's origin (or last user..) lies in the hilt. I have seen this type of hilt before but on blades that were attributed to Iraq and Syria. Not sure how correct is that and my source was a Kuwaiti antique dealer. Not having the reference books is handicapping my research about this blade, so would appreciate pictured examples of similar hilts.