Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th September 2018, 05:22 PM   #1
OneshotOnekill
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 4
Default Newbie in need of ID help...

Please just disregard my initial post. I wasn't able to get my pictures to upload so I used a third party host. My bad! I'll try it again...

Hello All,
This is my first post but I think it won't be my last. I have recently acquired and edged weapon that I have no clue about. I've been able to find similar looking weapons online and on auction sites but apparently here in The States there are few if any experts. I got this "knife" or "Dagger" because of the steel used in making it. I understand it is Wootz Steel which is very intriguing to me. I'll try to add the pictures I have in the hope that someone can enlighten me on where and when this weapon may have been made and any other pearls of wisdom. Thanks in advance!
Attached Images
    
OneshotOnekill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2018, 10:05 PM   #2
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,514
Default

Welcome OOK and thank you for following forum rules about posting links to externally hosted pictures. There are several people here who can give you an opinion on your knife.

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 03:15 AM   #3
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND (RISING FROM THE RUBBLE)
Posts: 2,311
Default

Hi OOK,
Welcome to the Forum. What you have here appears to be a Balkan KARD. Yours is likely Ottoman Turkish, but the style is found throughout the Balkans, Persia(Iran) and even India.
I am sure that others will reply here and clarify where it comes from.
There are many blade collectors in the States who regularly post here, so I am sure that ongoing you will develop contacts with similar minded collectors.
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 03:30 AM   #4
Oliver Pinchot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 320
Default

Modern Indian work made in the last decade.
Oliver Pinchot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 03:46 AM   #5
shayde78
Member
 
shayde78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 169
Default

Do I see "tears" in the hilt. Was that ever a traditional feature?
shayde78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 04:48 AM   #6
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,966
Default

Welcome to our little forum!

The scabbard mounts look modern Indian to me (better pictures would help) as well as the velvet condition.

I have not quite seen these from the Balkans, but I do agree with Khanjar 1 on them being from the Ottoman, Mughal, and Persian empires.

Again more pictures would be helpful.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 10:58 AM   #7
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,328
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Modern Indian work made in the last decade.


Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 01:44 PM   #8
OneshotOnekill
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Welcome to our little forum!

The scabbard mounts look modern Indian to me (better pictures would help) as well as the velvet condition.

I have not quite seen these from the Balkans, but I do agree with Khanjar 1 on them being from the Ottoman, Mughal, and Persian empires.

Again more pictures would be helpful.

I do think the scabbard is not old because the wood you can see on the inside looks very fresh and white. Any specific pictures you would like to see?
Thank you!
OneshotOnekill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 02:02 PM   #9
OneshotOnekill
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Modern Indian work made in the last decade.

I'm specifically responding to this post because it's such a departure from the others. As I stated, I have no knowledge about these but I'm not sure it's quite that new. I have been reading as much as I can find online (which isn't much because I don't know how to search this) and was under the impression that forging Wootz steel was a lost art and hasn't been done since the mid 1800's... unless I'm mis-informed or this is not made of Wootz?
If it was made that recently, would it be considered a trinket made for the tourist trade or is it something of some quality? Other than the flaws in the steel itself it seems to be well made. And what of the "Tears" in the grip spine? Is that common in these?
OneshotOnekill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 05:37 PM   #10
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,193
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
Modern Indian work made in the last decade.


I had the same suspicion, but it looks like the blade at least is old and just recently enhanced with fresh koftgari. Or am I wrong and blade is a newly made wootz blade?
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2018, 08:00 PM   #11
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,514
Default

Oliver raises a very good point. There are recently made Indian knives flooding the market, many coming from Rajastan, that are hard to distinguish from older knives with wootz blades. These copies are getting better and the appearance of the blades is getting closer to traditional wootz.

I would agree with those who point to a recent hilt and scabbard, and recent gold work on the blade. The question then becomes, Is this an old blade?

As I look at the blade, I see inconsistencies in the pattern that could indicate the blade is not traditional wootz. In particular, towards the tip, there are "blank areas" in the pattern. This suggests to me that Oliver is indeed correct, and the ensemble is recently made, most likely from northern India.

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2018, 07:43 AM   #12
sfenoid13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 56
Default

Recent production from India.
sfenoid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2018, 10:12 AM   #13
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,131
Default

Nothing "balkan" in this kard.

100% Indian, of recent production. Albeit of high quality showing crystalline wootz pattern.
mariusgmioc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2018, 02:15 PM   #14
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,201
Default

I join: modern Indian work thru and thru.
They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade.
But the devil is in the details: they do not know how to forge it right and that is the reason for a pitiful and patchy pattern. The rest is obviously virginally fresh.

It is obviously well above their mass-produced daggers, but it ainít no antique.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2018, 02:36 PM   #15
ALEX
Member
 
ALEX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 850
Default

[QUOTE=They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade.[/QUOTE]

Ariel,
I do not think this is the case nor real wootz ingots are being made The subject blade is likely antique wootz blade, heavily grinded from larger blade, likely tulwar, into smaller one, which resulted in discoloration and losses of pattern. The modern "wootz" daggers made in India that look like wootz are not real wootz, just like "wootz" ingots they sell on eBay.
ALEX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2018, 11:06 AM   #16
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,131
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALEX
Ariel,
I do not think this is the case nor real wootz ingots are being made The subject blade is likely antique wootz blade, heavily grinded from larger blade, likely tulwar, into smaller one, which resulted in discoloration and losses of pattern. The modern "wootz" daggers made in India that look like wootz are not real wootz, just like "wootz" ingots they sell on eBay.


It is possible but in my oppinion unlikely.

Antique wootz, reworked, will retain the watering pattern, or loose it but will not transform into crystalline wootz. And from what I can discern in the photos, the blade displays some crystalline wootz patterns.


After looking more at the photos, I believe I can discern some watering pattern...
If this is the case, then it is a blade reworked and the partial loss of pattern may be due to reheating locally the blade.
mariusgmioc is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:28 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.