Daggers from Gambia ? Comments please

katana · 7th April 2006, 05:52 PM

Just got these two daggers, I believe arm daggers, apparently acquired in Gambia during WW2.
The smaller has a 7'' blade and is 11'' overall. The larger (7 3/4'' blade, 12 3/4'' overall),is much more interesting, the blade is hand forged and sharpened on both edges, the point is unusually shaped and very sharp. The embossed design on the blade (both sides) suggests the symbolism of a snake, The sheath fits the blade perfectly and I believe it is the original, so I think the dagger was made with this uncharacteristic point. Not certain whether this knife's point was designed for a similar effect/useage as the dagger Tim posted,
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2081

drdavid · 7th April 2006, 10:41 PM

Nice things katana,
any chance you could post a side view of the tip of the dagger with the unusual shape
cheers
DrD

katana · 8th April 2006, 10:54 AM

Hi Drdavid,
here are the pictures of the point.

More thoughts on the possible snake symbol on the blade.

I am wondering whether the symbolism and the point are related. Venomous snakes obviously use their fangs to bite and inject the toxin. Could the point be a 'fang'. Poison is used by various cultures to enhance the killing effect of their weapons either in conflict or hunting. It would not be unreasonable to assume the possibillity that with the sybolism of the snake and the 'fang' point that it could have been used dipped in poison ???! Has anyone any thoughts.......?

katana · 8th April 2006, 11:30 AM

Just another thought, below is an ariel photo of the Gambia River, the estuary has a similar? shape to the 'head' of the 'symbolic snake'. Perhaps it is a representation of the river - the life blood of the surrounding area?.....or perhaps I'm thinking too much.......

Tim Simmons · 8th April 2006, 05:27 PM

That is interesting, how extensive in West Africa, heavy pionts on various daggers are seen. Nice dagger.

katana · 8th April 2006, 05:51 PM

Hi Tim,
are you saying that these points are fairly common to West Africa?
Have you any ideas as to why this type of dagger has these 'heavy points'.
Has the embossed 'snake' any significance? Sorry for asking all these questions but the road to knowledge is littered with them.... questions,that is, not daggers

Tim Simmons · 8th April 2006, 06:18 PM

Discussing snake iconography in Africa, West African in particular, would be rather like discussing the history of Christian Art. I will post a few snippets of information after my tea, while my wife watches things I do not like on the TV.

Tim Simmons · 8th April 2006, 08:11 PM

To go into this in depth would be exhausting and off subject so what I say is a gross simplification and I am not an expert. The information is very general and names and lore would vary from region to region.

Snakes are seen as having and giving positive forces so a snake on a blade may well be protective much like Latin motto's on bladed weapons from Europe. The positive forces of snakes is in direct contrast to Christian iconography where the snake represents evil and sin. The snake in West Africa is the chief mediator with spirits and manifestations of the godhead and creation.

The snake in African art is often used to portray a bridge or the barrier to cross, as it's role as a conduit. The pictures of this large Nigeria/Cameroon, Chamba/Tiv? armlet from the first half of the 20th century shows snakes forming a frame or guard around the male figure. I do not Know if the figure is a deity or a representation of the local chieftain. Personally I think he is a deity as he is shown rather oddly without genitalia but the ladies on his sides have thiers on display, either way it illustrates the position of snakes in relation to mortals or the supreme being when there is the need for communion.

Hope that does not sound too "up my own ####"

katana · 8th April 2006, 10:35 PM

What a concise and interesting answer, thank you. I thought it might have signified an empowering force. That somehow the dagger and, or the wielder would be aided/strengthened by the power or characteristics of, in this case, the snake.
It is an interesting that 'The Church' denounced/demonised the iconography relating to snakes.... perhaps this symbolism is strongly embedded in man's psyche and a threat to Christianity? The obvious sexual connotations of the snake seem relevant to the armlet. If the snake is viewed as a conduit/ messenger between two realms then the penis could also, and I'll explain my reasoning. The penis acts as a conduit between the male (life) force and the female, from this 'communication' life can spring forth whence there was none. The realms of the 'non living' to the living, so to speak I am wondering whether the fact that the male figure is genital-less is that the penis is viewed as a separate entity, the snake, is the penis, is the conduit.
And before anyone adds to this thread Yeah,..... I know that swords, spears, daggers are phallic symbols

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2006, 08:23 AM

I would have to agree. Collecting these weapons and artifacts without an attempt to understand the cultural setting, you might as well collect pretty coloured marbles.

7th April 2006, 05:52 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Daggers from Gambia ? Comments please Just got these two daggers, I believe arm daggers, apparently acquired in Gambia during WW2. The smaller has a 7'' blade and is 11'' overall. The larger (7 3/4'' blade, 12 3/4'' overall),is much more interesting, the blade is hand forged and sharpened on both edges, the point is unusually shaped and very sharp. The embossed design on the blade (both sides) suggests the symbolism of a snake, The sheath fits the blade perfectly and I believe it is the original, so I think the dagger was made with this uncharacteristic point. Not certain whether this knife's point was designed for a similar effect/useage as the dagger Tim posted, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2081 Attached Images

8th April 2006, 10:54 AM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Drdavid, here are the pictures of the point. More thoughts on the possible snake symbol on the blade. I am wondering whether the symbolism and the point are related. Venomous snakes obviously use their fangs to bite and inject the toxin. Could the point be a 'fang'. Poison is used by various cultures to enhance the killing effect of their weapons either in conflict or hunting. It would not be unreasonable to assume the possibillity that with the sybolism of the snake and the 'fang' point that it could have been used dipped in poison ???! Has anyone any thoughts.......? Attached Images Last edited by katana; 8th April 2006 at 11:19 AM.

8th April 2006, 11:30 AM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Just another thought, below is an ariel photo of the Gambia River, the estuary has a similar? shape to the 'head' of the 'symbolic snake'. Perhaps it is a representation of the river - the life blood of the surrounding area?.....or perhaps I'm thinking too much....... Attached Images

8th April 2006, 08:11 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	To go into this in depth would be exhausting and off subject so what I say is a gross simplification and I am not an expert. The information is very general and names and lore would vary from region to region. Snakes are seen as having and giving positive forces so a snake on a blade may well be protective much like Latin motto's on bladed weapons from Europe. The positive forces of snakes is in direct contrast to Christian iconography where the snake represents evil and sin. The snake in West Africa is the chief mediator with spirits and manifestations of the godhead and creation. The snake in African art is often used to portray a bridge or the barrier to cross, as it's role as a conduit. The pictures of this large Nigeria/Cameroon, Chamba/Tiv? armlet from the first half of the 20th century shows snakes forming a frame or guard around the male figure. I do not Know if the figure is a deity or a representation of the local chieftain. Personally I think he is a deity as he is shown rather oddly without genitalia but the ladies on his sides have thiers on display, either way it illustrates the position of snakes in relation to mortals or the supreme being when there is the need for communion. Hope that does not sound too "up my own ####" Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 8th April 2006 at 08:31 PM. Reason: spelling!!

7th April 2006, 10:41 PM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 369	Nice things katana, any chance you could post a side view of the tip of the dagger with the unusual shape cheers DrD

8th April 2006, 05:27 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	That is interesting, how extensive in West Africa, heavy pionts on various daggers are seen. Nice dagger.

8th April 2006, 05:51 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, are you saying that these points are fairly common to West Africa? Have you any ideas as to why this type of dagger has these 'heavy points'. Has the embossed 'snake' any significance? Sorry for asking all these questions but the road to knowledge is littered with them.... questions,that is, not daggers

8th April 2006, 06:18 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Discussing snake iconography in Africa, West African in particular, would be rather like discussing the history of Christian Art. I will post a few snippets of information after my tea, while my wife watches things I do not like on the TV.

8th April 2006, 10:35 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	What a concise and interesting answer, thank you. I thought it might have signified an empowering force. That somehow the dagger and, or the wielder would be aided/strengthened by the power or characteristics of, in this case, the snake. It is an interesting that 'The Church' denounced/demonised the iconography relating to snakes.... perhaps this symbolism is strongly embedded in man's psyche and a threat to Christianity? The obvious sexual connotations of the snake seem relevant to the armlet. If the snake is viewed as a conduit/ messenger between two realms then the penis could also, and I'll explain my reasoning. The penis acts as a conduit between the male (life) force and the female, from this 'communication' life can spring forth whence there was none. The realms of the 'non living' to the living, so to speak I am wondering whether the fact that the male figure is genital-less is that the penis is viewed as a separate entity, the snake, is the penis, is the conduit. And before anyone adds to this thread Yeah,..... I know that swords, spears, daggers are phallic symbols

9th April 2006, 08:23 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I would have to agree. Collecting these weapons and artifacts without an attempt to understand the cultural setting, you might as well collect pretty coloured marbles.