PAMOR BENANG SATUKUL

auk · 26th September 2013, 09:38 AM

Hello last time i had a keris fore dicusion here is another one its a pamor i guess benang satukul the base has an extra reinforcing pamor I think tumpuk i could be wrong also about the spelling.
i think the keris is missing a pendok You can see the notch at the top

its a pamor that i feel verry atractive to can anybode tell some more about the keris by seeing the picture,s.

by this threat i wanna learn verry more about keris
wat is the name of this keris am i wright about the pamor
wat periode is the keris made wat kind of tuah belongs this type etc
hope to hear from you soon and have a helpfull and full complete conversation.
greeting auk

Jean · 26th September 2013, 11:08 AM

Hello Auk,
I am not familiar with this pamor pattern and will leave it to others for comment. From the pictures the pamor appears as patched or peeling-off and not well mixed with the iron base?
Regarding the warangka gayaman, the gandar is made from good quality wood (timoho pelet?) and it may be a single piece with the crosspiece (warangka iras) so a pendok may not be required. Although the crosspiece is shaped in Yogja style, the gandar is too thick at the tip for a Yogja pendok so the sheath may well be from a Central Java village or East Java .
Best regards

auk · 27th September 2013, 08:13 AM

Hi jean thanx fore the reply
yes the sheet is one piece but not so big the total lengt of the sheet is 32cm and the keris 31cm
thanx fore reading and hope to read more from different people
greetings auk

tunggulametung · 29th September 2013, 03:43 AM

I don't recognize the name of the pamor but attached is what Ensiklopedi Keris described about Benang Saukel, perhaps other members willing to help with appropriate translation.

Dapur might be Kala Dete/Deteng/Dite (as described by Ensiklopedi Keris)-- among other details: straight keris, with kembang kacang, lambe gajah and greneng. You might want to get this book if you want to name pamor, dapur, tuah, tangguh, etc in regular basis (in Bahasa Indonesia only as far as I know).

Nice mendak, is it silver? If so, a silver Jogja pendok will be suitable (but I don't know, blade condition appear too poor to go to that direction--at least from my point of view). Hilt appear to be good quality. Warangka iras is priced more than the one with separate gandar. Age of a keris is another difficult matter, perhaps late 20 c.? Any provenance? Please consider to collect keris with better blade condition as I seems to remember being told that owning (read: collecting) broken keris bring you bad luck

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2013, 07:36 AM

Some people do believe that having a broken or poor condition keris in one's possession can bring bad luck, but others believe that taking responsibility for and looking after a keris that has been neglected or broken can bring good luck.

I belong to this second camp.

I do have more than a few very fine keris, but I also have a number of keris that were rescued from situations of total neglect. One of my favourite keris was in the junk basket of a well known Solo dealer when I rescued it. It was in absolutely bad condition. It got a complete makeover, including going back into the fire, as the blade was almost a figure 8. It came back to life as a very nice keris.

Maybe the effect on luck depends upon what each of us believe.

auk · 29th September 2013, 02:40 PM

Hello thanks fore the reply
yes the mendak is silver the sheet and keris messure perfect so they belong togheter i think a nice pendok wil do good if someone can help me to one please
i am all ears.
i dont think the blade is in that bad condition at all its just the age of time i guess.
it needs a good wassing but here not so easy to get
when i got the keris it took some months when it arive it was like the keris was looking fore its new owner , it was all rusty and dirt
i cleaned it and i think it looks nice good pamor.
coold be better but.....
the keris is not broken i also think when i keris is neglected it needs a good new owner and also i think he wil have good luck fore cleaning and helping the keris
just my opinion.
any more opinions are verry welcome
greetings

David · 29th September 2013, 07:02 PM

Auk, i also agree with both you and Alan. Rescuing a neglected keris is a good deed in my book and i think the only people who will receive "bad luck" from such a kindness are those that convince themselves that it's true and manifest it in their own minds. Belief is a funny thing that way.

I also don't see your keris as being particularly "broken", though to does have some condition issues for sure. Some of that is to be expected with an older keris. I am having a hard time understanding why Tunggulametung thinks this is a late 20 century keris. Seems just a bit older than that to me at least.

On the question of fitting a pendok, this is just my personal opinion. Many people who collect keris feel the need to change and upgrade the pieces they own. For me i am collecting a piece of ethnographic history and i am more interested in maintaining, preserving, conserving the object and trying to understand it in its original context. If a mendak or pendok is missing or broken i might replace it. But this sheath was obviously made for this keris. It is wrongko iras which is a bit rare and much harder to make. I don't believe this sheath was ever intended to have a pendok. IMHO, fitting it with a pendok now would be incorrect and in order to do so you would probably have top do damage to the gander in order to fit a pendok over it. That makes no sense to me.

Sajen · 29th September 2013, 10:15 PM

When auk like this keris all is ok, not all keris are of high or better quality. It is just his second keris and when he will like to collect more as this both he will come to better ones by time. Chandra mean by partly broken maybe the missing kembang kacang. And for a suitable pendok auk ask byself. But I also don't would cover the gandar with a pendok also when this keris would has had one by time.

26th September 2013, 09:38 AM	#1
auk Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 28	PAMOR BENANG SATUKUL Hello last time i had a keris fore dicusion here is another one its a pamor i guess benang satukul the base has an extra reinforcing pamor I think tumpuk i could be wrong also about the spelling. i think the keris is missing a pendok You can see the notch at the top its a pamor that i feel verry atractive to can anybode tell some more about the keris by seeing the picture,s. by this threat i wanna learn verry more about keris wat is the name of this keris am i wright about the pamor wat periode is the keris made wat kind of tuah belongs this type etc hope to hear from you soon and have a helpfull and full complete conversation. greeting auk Attached Images Last edited by auk; 26th September 2013 at 09:40 AM. Reason: learning

26th September 2013, 11:08 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Auk, I am not familiar with this pamor pattern and will leave it to others for comment. From the pictures the pamor appears as patched or peeling-off and not well mixed with the iron base? Regarding the warangka gayaman, the gandar is made from good quality wood (timoho pelet?) and it may be a single piece with the crosspiece (warangka iras) so a pendok may not be required. Although the crosspiece is shaped in Yogja style, the gandar is too thick at the tip for a Yogja pendok so the sheath may well be from a Central Java village or East Java . Best regards Last edited by Jean; 26th September 2013 at 06:00 PM.

29th September 2013, 03:43 AM	#4
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	I don't recognize the name of the pamor but attached is what Ensiklopedi Keris described about Benang Saukel, perhaps other members willing to help with appropriate translation. Dapur might be Kala Dete/Deteng/Dite (as described by Ensiklopedi Keris)-- among other details: straight keris, with kembang kacang, lambe gajah and greneng. You might want to get this book if you want to name pamor, dapur, tuah, tangguh, etc in regular basis (in Bahasa Indonesia only as far as I know). Nice mendak, is it silver? If so, a silver Jogja pendok will be suitable (but I don't know, blade condition appear too poor to go to that direction--at least from my point of view). Hilt appear to be good quality. Warangka iras is priced more than the one with separate gandar. Age of a keris is another difficult matter, perhaps late 20 c.? Any provenance? Please consider to collect keris with better blade condition as I seems to remember being told that owning (read: collecting) broken keris bring you bad luck Attached Images Last edited by tunggulametung; 29th September 2013 at 03:54 AM.

29th September 2013, 07:02 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	Auk, i also agree with both you and Alan. Rescuing a neglected keris is a good deed in my book and i think the only people who will receive "bad luck" from such a kindness are those that convince themselves that it's true and manifest it in their own minds. Belief is a funny thing that way. I also don't see your keris as being particularly "broken", though to does have some condition issues for sure. Some of that is to be expected with an older keris. I am having a hard time understanding why Tunggulametung thinks this is a late 20 century keris. Seems just a bit older than that to me at least. On the question of fitting a pendok, this is just my personal opinion. Many people who collect keris feel the need to change and upgrade the pieces they own. For me i am collecting a piece of ethnographic history and i am more interested in maintaining, preserving, conserving the object and trying to understand it in its original context. If a mendak or pendok is missing or broken i might replace it. But this sheath was obviously made for this keris. It is wrongko iras which is a bit rare and much harder to make. I don't believe this sheath was ever intended to have a pendok. IMHO, fitting it with a pendok now would be incorrect and in order to do so you would probably have top do damage to the gander in order to fit a pendok over it. That makes no sense to me. Last edited by David; 29th September 2013 at 07:47 PM.

27th September 2013, 08:13 AM	#3
auk Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 28	Hi jean thanx fore the reply yes the sheet is one piece but not so big the total lengt of the sheet is 32cm and the keris 31cm thanx fore reading and hope to read more from different people greetings auk

29th September 2013, 07:36 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Some people do believe that having a broken or poor condition keris in one's possession can bring bad luck, but others believe that taking responsibility for and looking after a keris that has been neglected or broken can bring good luck. I belong to this second camp. I do have more than a few very fine keris, but I also have a number of keris that were rescued from situations of total neglect. One of my favourite keris was in the junk basket of a well known Solo dealer when I rescued it. It was in absolutely bad condition. It got a complete makeover, including going back into the fire, as the blade was almost a figure 8. It came back to life as a very nice keris. Maybe the effect on luck depends upon what each of us believe.

29th September 2013, 02:40 PM	#6
auk Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 28	Hello thanks fore the reply yes the mendak is silver the sheet and keris messure perfect so they belong togheter i think a nice pendok wil do good if someone can help me to one please i am all ears. i dont think the blade is in that bad condition at all its just the age of time i guess. it needs a good wassing but here not so easy to get when i got the keris it took some months when it arive it was like the keris was looking fore its new owner , it was all rusty and dirt i cleaned it and i think it looks nice good pamor. coold be better but..... the keris is not broken i also think when i keris is neglected it needs a good new owner and also i think he wil have good luck fore cleaning and helping the keris just my opinion. any more opinions are verry welcome greetings

29th September 2013, 10:15 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,483	When auk like this keris all is ok, not all keris are of high or better quality. It is just his second keris and when he will like to collect more as this both he will come to better ones by time. Chandra mean by partly broken maybe the missing kembang kacang. And for a suitable pendok auk ask byself. But I also don't would cover the gandar with a pendok also when this keris would has had one by time.