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Old 1st December 2019, 10:48 AM   #1
JBG163
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Default Weapons for animals

Dear all,

By the thread about elephant Swords, i want to launch another subject, that, i found, awesomly interesting.
What animals weapons do younknow ?
Here we got :
- elephant sword in india

- i know that Indonesian put knifes on cock claws for cock fighting

- also indonesia, goat sword, put in the head of a goat with a harness, in order to figth tiger (king game, where the goat generally die and thé tiger when speared to death After).

Did you know another animals weapons ? Where did they Come from ?

Thanks everybody !

Julien
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Old 1st December 2019, 06:52 PM   #2
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I've been known to carry a .44 cal from Smith & Wesson for bear. Does that count?
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Old 1st December 2019, 07:26 PM   #3
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The weapon was not only active, but also passive
Once upon a time in Europe, wolfhound dogs were worn with wide iron collars (so that the wolf could not grab them by the neck), and for hunting wild boars, dogs wore special armor made of chain mail. Before the Second World War, one instance of such armor was stored in the collection of the Wartburg castle in Germany.
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Old 1st December 2019, 08:20 PM   #4
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Julien, this is I agree, a most interesting slant on the study of arms, but it is I'm afraid a bit of a strain in the scope of discussions here, as seen in the somewhat bizarre entries entertained in the elephant sword thread (my bat entry not withstanding ).

Actually the subject is best described as either animals used AS weapons or weapons added TO animals in warfare. Animals are of course usually afforded their own natural weapons, and use these instinctively. Therefore they do not need weapons as used by humans, nor would they be trained in the use of them.

It is ironic however, that early humans learned about weapons from those of the animals around them, and fashioned their own representations of these natural animal weapons, such as tusks, horns, fangs and claws to use in imitation of them.

Early weapons were often comprised of the actual animal parts, or fashioned in imitation of them. Eventually of course, these were fashioned of steel.

Examples of the madu in India, as well as the bichwa, curved blades of the various daggers, and bagh nakh (claws) are of course in mind.

Animals trained in combat such as the war horse were THE weapon, and they kick to unhorse riders, and bite against an enemy. The elephants were less reliable in maintaining the direction of their aggression as far as targets.

Good point by Ren Ren, as passive weapons, much like armor, were for defense. The spiked collar around the neck of dogs is so that they cannot be grabbed around the neck negating their biting ability, but as described on the hunting dogs as well with threat of the prey attacking.

I find only dismay in the description of blades on claws in cock fighting and in these kinds of cruel 'sport' using animals.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 07:40 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I find only dismay in the description of blades on claws in cock fighting and in these kinds of cruel 'sport' using animals.


We should stop discussing such themes, they are absolutely stupid, inhuman and unworthy
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Old 2nd December 2019, 08:03 AM   #6
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Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 08:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.

Absolutely. Do i see this thread has just ended ...
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Old 2nd December 2019, 10:52 AM   #8
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It is wonderful that the modern inhabitants of the planet Earth are striving for the pure, bright and humane. But "civilization is when they kill as before, but no longer cut off the ears of corpses!"
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Old 2nd December 2019, 11:16 AM   #9
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I saw in thoses artifacts, ancient weapons, ancient tradition and ancient culture. Maybe it was pretty dirty things. But, the Swords you collect maybe killed innocent women, men and child, maybe, it was used to rob someone or murder. Think about Nepalese Kora or Indian Sword, used to sacrifying animals...
Everything isn't bright in a society, in a different cultural way. But, the weapon itself, the construction, the way it's made and use is interessant.
By the way, i don't thing this thread need to end. Maybe move up to miscellaneous. Thanks for response about european way to Armor dogs, i wasn't aware of this. And if anybody got informations, i Hope we Can continu to talk about this, without anger.
Have a good day everybody.
Julien
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Old 2nd December 2019, 03:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Yes, the occasional mention in passing in discussing a specific martial arm is one thing. Discussing this subject especially their illegal cruel sport aspects on it's own is not appropriate.


I agree with Wayne, an occasion digression to unusual use of a specific weapon or type where it brings animals in, such as the exemplars of armor, or the elephant swords is tolerable as long as reasonable candor is kept.

But these aspects of misuse and cruel exploitation of animals is both distasteful and disturbing. While obviously weapons are intended for combative use, as a rule, they are typically used against other weapons in a reasonably skilled exchange, and purposed primarily defensively.

I think Julien's intent here was well meaning, but I am afraid the theme has exposed an unpleasant course. Let's take the high road guys and let this one go.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 06:17 PM   #11
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The Third Battle of Panipat ended in a resounding defeat of the Marathi army. More than 40,000 fully armed soldiers died on the battlefield. But 40,000 -70,000 of mostly non-combatants were taken prisoner, disarmed and slaughtered in cold blood the very next day. In a forest near the village of Katyn, Russian NKVD in 1939 slaughtered 10,000 Polish officers,- who surrendered to Russians, escaping German onslaught. Not much different from the Afghani solution to the Marathi "problem" in 1761, only almost 200 years later.
From the beautiful heights of Geneva Convention we imagine wars as brutal but " honest" confrontations, something along the lines of Ivanhoe in his shining armor.
In reality, wars were always dirty, pitiless and bloody business, with no quarter given, with mass slaughter of men, women, children, sheep and oxen.
I love animals just like any of you. But let's recall, that literally several days ago we have calmly discussed Russian dogs with suicide belts, trained to crawl under German tanks and explode there.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 08:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG163
... By the way, i don't thing this thread need to end. Maybe move up to miscellaneous...

Let us start by following your suggestion, Julien.Thread moved.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 09:20 PM   #13
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Exclamation Wait a minute

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
... I love animals just like any of you...

Sure thing Ariel, but; maybe we don't all love with the same intensity ... just saying .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
... But let's recall, that literally several days ago we have calmly discussed Russian dogs with suicide belts, trained to crawl under German tanks and explode there...

Well, not we, Ariel ... not we; on the contrary ... sure you didn't miss it.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 09:26 PM   #14
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Thumbs up

Let us go back to the business our forum is about.
Merry Christmas everyone .
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Old 3rd December 2019, 04:24 PM   #15
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Thanks for this. By the way, i got two dogs, and i have a MSC in Ecology in the animal reign (was before becoming blacksmith). I really like animals. What interest me here, is the adaptation if the weapon / Armor, to the animal body (anatomic way), the adaptation if the weapon form to it use, and finally, the cultural aspect of it. The tajen, dagger for cockfigth, is kept by Indonesian as pusaka/heirloom. Some are cherish like keris.
It's important for me to understand différent belief and cultures.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 04:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG163
Thanks for this. By the way, i got two dogs, and i have a MSC in Ecology in the animal reign (was before becoming blacksmith). I really like animals. What interest me here, is the adaptation if the weapon / Armor, to the animal body (anatomic way), the adaptation if the weapon form to it use, and finally, the cultural aspect of it. The tajen, dagger for cockfigth, is kept by Indonesian as pusaka/heirloom. Some are cherish like keris.
It's important for me to understand différent belief and cultures.


You have a good point there Julien, we should not be judgemental of the beliefs, traditions and conventions of cultures other than our own. I had no idea that blades used in cock fighting were so valued in themselves.
While to me such 'sports' are abhorrent, like bull 'fighting', I guess that in our own culture, boxing is to me brutish and distasteful. Clearly it is a very personal view.
Thank you for reminding me of being open minded in the study of cultures, which is exactly what fascinates me just as it does you.
Very well put responses and resolution.
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Old 5th December 2019, 05:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ren
The weapon was not only active, but also passive
Once upon a time in Europe, wolfhound dogs were worn with wide iron collars (so that the wolf could not grab them by the neck), and for hunting wild boars, dogs wore special armor made of chain mail. Before the Second World War, one instance of such armor was stored in the collection of the Wartburg castle in Germany.


Here is an example of mentioned passive weapon - a Medieval dog collar found in Hungary, but with spikes instead of plates.
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Old Yesterday, 06:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALEX
Here is an example of mentioned passive weapon - a Medieval dog collar found in Hungary, but with spikes instead of plates.


When I saw the collar above, it occurred to me that it might actually be reversable. It's not unknown to use a collar like the one I've pictured to restrain dogs from pulling against a lead. Unpleasant to contemplate, but admittedly humanity is often inhumane. (Proper use of this collar is not as nasty as it may appear, though the Hungarian collar is frightful.)
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Old Yesterday, 08:27 AM   #19
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Hunting and guard dogs frequently had (and still do) have wide leather collars with spikes to prevent other predators from attacking their vulnerable necks. Full body armour is also used for wild boar hunting, usually not usually made from maille or plate, but from more modern materials, kevlar and sections of steel belted tire are used. Boar tusks are really nasty and uppers and lowers rub against each other to sharpen them into bone razors. The boars of course object strenuously to being annoyed.

The use of the internal spike 'restraint' collar that Bob A shows is despicable and a sign of someone who should not be allowed to own a dog. They can if not very loose, do irreparable damage physically and mentally. Even loose, they are designed to hurt. There are much better and more humane anti-pull collars and harnesses available. Bob's at least has the secondary loop that restricts how far the collar will tighten, some do not and are more like a noose.

Last edited by kronckew : Yesterday at 09:46 AM.
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