Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd November 2018, 11:49 PM   #1
bvieira
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
Default Identify saber

Hello,

I Saw this saber on a antiques shop, don't know this model, anybody recognise it ? It was no visible marks.

Tks!

BV
Attached Images
  
bvieira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 12:30 AM   #2
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

This is obviously a stirrup hilt of M1796 British light cavalry form but the langets are compellingly similar to those on Indian tulwars (Indo-Persian form hilts) and may well have been for units of cavalry in British service in India. The M1796 while one of the first 'regulation ' pattern swords for Great Britain, seems to have had quite an array of variations as private contractors producing them responded more to demands of the colonels purchasing them than to strict pattern design in certain elements.

This sword 'pattern' itself was much favored in the Indian army and remained being produced (again in variant interpretations) well through the 19th century after the succession of the 1821 patterns which followed the 1796.

Interesting example, and the only such variant 1796's I have seen were some in brass, also with Indian style langet which I believe was for EIC native forces after Seringpatam (1799). I have also seen steel shamshir type hilt with tulwar style quillon terminals and langets.....with British M1788 blade.
I think all of these may fall into an EIC category of private purchase arms.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 10:37 AM   #3
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

The 'Flank Officers', of the light infantry, skirmishers and rifle companies used to screen the sides of the Line regiments, favoured the more highly curved variants like the one in post #1. Private purchase officer swords frequently did not have the riveted backstrap 'stirrups' that the troopers had. The wire wound grips were not used on troopers versions.

The Indians were offered the 1908 brit 'sabre', but it was unsuited to their preference for the cut, so they kept a 1796 style hatchet point blade with slight improvements and a three branch 1821 style steel guard as Model 1910 until the UK forced them to use the 1908 for ww1 in Europe.

Mine: Slightly wider at the blade/guard junction, a tad shorter and a bit lighter than my 1796 LC. It's also a bit handier.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by kronckew; 4th November 2018 at 10:48 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 10:58 AM   #4
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Bruno, do i recall correctly in that you told me you have a copy of AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre?
If you hit page 121 you will see two sabres in that the hilts visibly resemble the example you posted. Characteristic of Portuguese light cavalry, as per 1806 regulation.
The absence of a prominent pommel is a revealing detail. So is the shape of the langets, an orientalist design bringing memories of Moorish influence. And i wouldn't be surprised that the tang end is screwed to the hilt dome and not peened.
Blades in these swords were sometimes bent to an exagerated point (so called parabolic), a typical period show off fashion, like IN HERE.


.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 12:14 PM   #5
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

A "De Luxe" version of the 1806 Uniform Plan (as it was called) would be this example, provenant of the House of Marquis de Fronteira.The scabbard is silver, with a textile & gold knot strap and tassel. The well bent blade with traces of having been silver plated, with three fullers as from the second quarter. The hilt is in silver, with an internal riveted finger guard. The grip is ebony, with braided silver wire.
(Courtesy Paço Ducal de Vila Viçosa)


,
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 12:39 PM   #6
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

The top sword in Fernando's post 4 looks like a match. I think we have a winner!
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 12:50 PM   #7
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
The top sword in Fernando's post 4 looks like a match. I think we have a winner!
And the prize is ... a saucer of barnacles ... and a pint of bitter .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 01:48 PM   #8
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Fernando,
Is it the photograph, or is this Portuguese blade sharpened only at its distal half?
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 02:49 PM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Which one you mean, Ariel; the one in post #5 ?
The catalogue mentions "de um só gume e cota", roughly translating to "one only edge and back". What you would interpreter as single edged; in all its distance, it must be.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 03:24 PM   #10
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Wayne, brilliantly summarized notes on the Indian cavalry swords! a field of study which still often remains extremely arcane in the scope of military swords.
Which brings me to an even more arcane category of cavalry swords, which are those of Portugal. Perfect match of Bruno's sabre to this Portuguese example! While I have known of the Portuguese fashioning examples after the British model 1796 sabres, I had no idea of these intriguing designs in the langets.
My admittedly free association comparison to Indian langets on Indian tulwars suggested possible EIC connection based on other instances I had mentioned, but this specific match to the Portuguese sword would appear irrefutable, and delightfully so.


Thank you guys...…...discussions are the VERY best when something new is learned, and best of all, shared.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 04:45 PM   #11
MacCathain
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 65
Default

Another Portuguese sabre with exotic langets. From the Lisbon Military Museum.
Attached Images
 
MacCathain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 04:50 PM   #12
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Love the finger loop, similar to one on Fernando's example.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 05:49 PM   #13
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Love the finger loop, similar to one on Fernando's example.
... Which were commonly referred as Sabres de Gatilho (trigger sabres).
The one below in this picture was for use by Army Staff Officers, those of the Corps of Engineers and Scouts.
The example above, more like Bruno's posted example, has the inscription VIVA PORTUGAL and is signed by A.Mesquita, the probable sword smith, a name however not listed in Sousa Viterbo's A Armaria e Portugal (1907).


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 08:14 PM   #14
bvieira
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
Default

Hello,

Thanks all for the information, about Fernando question, yes i have the book but the angle of this saber is so exagerated that i had doubt's it was original... Meanwhile i bought it and another One with a "normal" angle.

Regards,

BV
bvieira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2018, 08:22 PM   #15
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Probably most parabolic blades didn't come like that from the original maker or even obbeyed regulations; i believe they were modified by owners once in their possession, being sent to a (black) smith to be submitted to such special treatment.
However, we know of some that came out like that as a "legal" pattern.

.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th November 2018, 11:49 PM   #16
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 386
Default

Interesting post, I've ordered the book AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES.
Many Napoleonic swords that appear British are not necessarily so.
I'm curious what other sword types are in this book.
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2018, 08:43 AM   #17
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

There is a thread here about these highly. curved blades, by fernando:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...&page=1&pp=30&
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2018, 11:46 AM   #18
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
There is a thread here about these highly. curved blades, by fernando:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...&page=1&pp=30&
That's where my link in post #4 came from; only i just wanted to focus in the specific example .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2018, 03:15 PM   #19
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will M
Interesting post, I've ordered the book AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES.
Many Napoleonic swords that appear British are not necessarily so.
I'm curious what other sword types are in this book.
You may find here and there descriptons worth a pinch of salt, specially on what touches the recurrent attribution 'dispute' Portuguese VS Spanish, as also some texts emphasized, like for adding value to the pieces. Pictures are excelent.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2018, 07:02 PM   #20
bvieira
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
Default

Hello,

Meanwhile i found more information about the sword, it seems it was popular in Brasil with a nickname of "Rabo de galo", "rooster tail ?".

Regards,

BV
Attached Images
   
bvieira is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.