Handgonners from spanish tapestry

Spiridonov · 30th March 2011, 08:54 PM

These spanish tapestry was made from 1472 to 1480 year. the images of handgonners were founded in this album: https://picasaweb.google.com/geoffre...eriesDEspagne#

Spiridonov · 30th March 2011, 08:55 PM

else:

Matchlock · 30th March 2011, 09:10 PM

Another great find, Alexander, thank you!

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 30th March 2011, 09:10 PM

and the most interesting images:
A. clef
B. probably lockplate
C. serpentine
D. piece of tinder
F. looks like pan but I think that this is a touch hole turned to the right side.

Matchlock · 31st March 2011, 09:01 AM

Hi Alexander,

You know I do not believe in complete lock plates before ca. 1500. To me, these illustrations rather seem to picture single divided lock parts like a serpentine spring just nailed or clamped to the right side of the stock!

I am attaching the famous snap matchlock gun of the Emperor Maximilian I and another two two ca. 1500 guns preserved in the Royal Armouries Leeds, one of which features exactly the same relic spring, the other having lost all its other 'lock' parts except for the brass clamps!

Please remember all these were preliminary stages prior to the combining lockplate, and that's exactly why I tend to date Martin Merz's drawing to ca. 1500.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 31st March 2011, 05:13 PM

Thanks for comment. Michael, what do You think about type of this mechanism? I had never seen that before

Matchlock · 31st March 2011, 07:56 PM

Sadly not one single gun with a complete mechanism of this kind seems to have survived. On the gun in the Royal Armouries Leeds at least the spring of the serpentine is still there. On a similar arquebus in the Vienna collection, stocked for a left handed shooter, the tender tinder serpentine has been replaced in the correct way. So this item conveys a good impression of what these mechanisms looked like.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 31st March 2011, 08:48 PM

If you read the (French) labels in the link, you will notice that these tapestries were woven to illustrate Portuguese King Dom Afonso V landing, siege and take over of North African cities of Arzila and Tangiers in 1471.
It was he who ordered these four huge tapestries (each 4x11 meters) from the Flemish workshops of Tournai, where they were wooven in wool and silk. Having probably arrived in Portugal already by the realm of King Dom João II (1481 ...), a few decades after they were made, in 1532, they surprisingly appeared in Spain, in the estate inventory of the Dukes do Infantado.
How they ended up in Spain, is a mistery for which, until today, historians have found no answer. What is known is that they were inherited by the said Dukes, who later offered them to the Colegiada of Pastrana (Gualadajara) where they still are, in the local Parish church.
During the Portuguese Ditactorship, Prime Minister Salazar tried to recuperate them, withou success. As an alternative, in 1930, it was arranged for a set of copies to be made, being exhibited until today in the Palace of the Dukes de Bragança, in the city of Guimarães.

.

fernando · 31st March 2011, 09:08 PM

Also present in the Pastrana tapestries we have the artillery, an important timeline mark.
...From the cover of a little publication i have on Portuguese artillery
.

Matchlock · 31st March 2011, 09:26 PM

Thank you, 'Nando, for putting this right!

Of course these tapestries were woven in one of the famos Tournai workshops, like many others which today are preserved in museums. For at least as late as the 1540's (Charles V), those martial topics were transferred to pictorial tapestries - posters and advertising pillars had not yet been invented!

Best,
Michl

fernando · 31st March 2011, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

...those martial topics were transferred to pictorial tapestries - posters and advertising pillars had not yet been invented!

Amazing remark

.
The article from where i took some data to support my post, quotes:
... Dom Afonso V couldn't take with him any image reporters. There was no direct coverings or live coments made by journalists in front of TV cameras;
reason why he ordered the tapestries

Matchlock · 31st March 2011, 09:53 PM

Exactly, and so did other Late Gothic and Early Renaissance warlords.

These tapestries were nothing but woven war reports.

Best,
Michl

Spiridonov · 3rd April 2011, 08:38 PM

A think that "A" possibly is not lever (clef) and is not a part of this hangonne. May be it something on the body of the man. In this case details "B" and "C" may be just a one simple holder for a tinder which is fixed on a stock by nail. It looks like sistem of Giorgi Martini. I think that hangonner had to push on side "B" by thumb to turn it around the nail. In all case we don't know exactly

p/s
I have made mistake. It is not spanish tapestry but portuguese tapestry

30th March 2011, 08:54 PM	#1
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Handgonners from spanish tapestry These spanish tapestry was made from 1472 to 1480 year. the images of handgonners were founded in this album: https://picasaweb.google.com/geoffre...eriesDEspagne# Attached Images

30th March 2011, 08:55 PM	#2
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	else: Attached Images

30th March 2011, 09:10 PM	#4
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	and the most interesting images: A. clef B. probably lockplate C. serpentine D. piece of tinder F. looks like pan but I think that this is a touch hole turned to the right side. Attached Images

31st March 2011, 09:01 AM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Alexander, You know I do not believe in complete lock plates before ca. 1500. To me, these illustrations rather seem to picture single divided lock parts like a serpentine spring just nailed or clamped to the right side of the stock! I am attaching the famous snap matchlock gun of the Emperor Maximilian I and another two two ca. 1500 guns preserved in the Royal Armouries Leeds, one of which features exactly the same relic spring, the other having lost all its other 'lock' parts except for the brass clamps! Please remember all these were preliminary stages prior to the combining lockplate, and that's exactly why I tend to date Martin Merz's drawing to ca. 1500. Best, Michael Attached Images

31st March 2011, 07:56 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Sadly not one single gun with a complete mechanism of this kind seems to have survived. On the gun in the Royal Armouries Leeds at least the spring of the serpentine is still there. On a similar arquebus in the Vienna collection, stocked for a left handed shooter, the tender tinder serpentine has been replaced in the correct way. So this item conveys a good impression of what these mechanisms looked like. Best, Michael Attached Images

31st March 2011, 05:13 PM	#6
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Thanks for comment. Michael, what do You think about type of this mechanism? I had never seen that before

31st March 2011, 08:48 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Spanish ... not really If you read the (French) labels in the link, you will notice that these tapestries were woven to illustrate Portuguese King Dom Afonso V landing, siege and take over of North African cities of Arzila and Tangiers in 1471. It was he who ordered these four huge tapestries (each 4x11 meters) from the Flemish workshops of Tournai, where they were wooven in wool and silk. Having probably arrived in Portugal already by the realm of King Dom João II (1481 ...), a few decades after they were made, in 1532, they surprisingly appeared in Spain, in the estate inventory of the Dukes do Infantado. How they ended up in Spain, is a mistery for which, until today, historians have found no answer. What is known is that they were inherited by the said Dukes, who later offered them to the Colegiada of Pastrana (Gualadajara) where they still are, in the local Parish church. During the Portuguese Ditactorship, Prime Minister Salazar tried to recuperate them, withou success. As an alternative, in 1930, it was arranged for a set of copies to be made, being exhibited until today in the Palace of the Dukes de Bragança, in the city of Guimarães. . Attached Images

31st March 2011, 09:08 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Also present in the Pastrana tapestries we have the artillery, an important timeline mark. ...From the cover of a little publication i have on Portuguese artillery . Attached Images

31st March 2011, 09:26 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you, 'Nando, for putting this right! Of course these tapestries were woven in one of the famos Tournai workshops, like many others which today are preserved in museums. For at least as late as the 1540's (Charles V), those martial topics were transferred to pictorial tapestries - posters and advertising pillars had not yet been invented! Best, Michl

31st March 2011, 09:53 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly, and so did other Late Gothic and Early Renaissance warlords. These tapestries were nothing but woven war reports. Best, Michl

3rd April 2011, 08:38 PM	#13
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	A think that "A" possibly is not lever (clef) and is not a part of this hangonne. May be it something on the body of the man. In this case details "B" and "C" may be just a one simple holder for a tinder which is fixed on a stock by nail. It looks like sistem of Giorgi Martini. I think that hangonner had to push on side "B" by thumb to turn it around the nail. In all case we don't know exactly p/s I have made mistake. It is not spanish tapestry but portuguese tapestry Attached Images Last edited by Spiridonov; 4th April 2011 at 09:19 AM.