Wehrmacht officers dagger

[fenlander]

Is this a genuine Wehrmacht Officer's Dagger? What do the experts on here think about the swords and knives on this site? Are they genuine and well priced ?


http://www.wwii-collectibles.com/Mer...egory_Code=grm

scroll down the page and check the next pages. He has lots of nazi knives and swords for sale.

[Philip]

I don't know if Nazi daggers (like bayonets and other military edged implements massed-produced in an industrial setting) can be strictly called "ethnographic", but maybe somebody else can weigh in. This isn't my field of interest or expertise by a long shot, but I have friends who have been active in this area for decades, and I'd like to pass an important caveat along to you.

This branch of collecting is loaded with fakes!!! Composite pieces and flat-out repros have been cranked out since the late 1950s in various countries, and each generation of fakes has gotten better and better. It's gotten to the point where you can't safely buy from pictures anymore unless you absolutely know and trust the seller. There is a considerable body of reference literature devoted to the problem of authenticity in Nazi daggers, and it's recommended that any collector study this religiously, and actually handle as many daggers as possible, before reaching for the checkbook. Anyway, this is what the 'pros' tell me and I hope that it saves you from flushing good money down the toilet on a bad piece.

[fenlander]

Good advice. I was a little surprised to see all those swords and daggers on the Internet, especially in that quality.

I was worried about asking the question on this site as it is very politically incorrect to discuss nazi daggers and swords etc. However i do think from an aesthetic point of view they look great; but personally I can't believe they are genuine in that condition.
Anyway you give great advice, thanks. Moderators please remove this post if it is offensive to any of your regulars. I won't be offended.

[Philip]

PC-ness can be taken too far; this is an edged weapons forum and Nazi daggers do have edges, and it's possible to discuss these without having to discuss Nazism (or any other political system) itself at a venue such as this.

Some folks might quibble about Nazi daggers and swords being "weapons" at all since they are for the most part more decorative than functional. You can call them "sword-like objects", but these daggers are significant as regalia or symbolic accouterments, such as European coronation swords or the "guom" sabers carried by Vietnamese military mandarins.

The concerns about authenticity are common to just about any other aspect of edged weapons collecting. How to tell the wheat from the chaff is something of growing importance in many fields (Chinese, Indian, Indonesian, to name a few) as the reproductions are ever more prevalent and in many cases have gotten more and more sophisticated.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Philip

PC-ness can be taken too far; this is an edged weapons forum and Nazi daggers do have edges, and it's possible to discuss these without having to discuss Nazism (or any other political system) itself at a venue such as this.

Exactly. Thanks, Philip.

[Dajak]

Hi I only know that for the real old pieces with history paid realy high prices
starting 2 or 3 times more than than this one


Ben

[Henk]

These weapons are no ethnographic weapons, but certainly edged weapons.

As said discussing these weapons is in my opinion no problem. We are discussing a weapon and not a political system.

I know that there are many colectors of these military weapons. If you want to purchase such a weapon go to a collectors fair. Talk with collectors and try to find a reliable seller who has knowledge of these things. On these fairs you get fast enough the directions where you have to go.

[fenlander]

Actually although the weapons are expensive on his site, for what they claim to be they don't seem expensive enough.

[CharlesS]

There are plenty of over venues for such pieces. I do not think it qualifies as an ethnographic piece, and is hardly antique.

I do not believe this type of piece belongs on this particular forum, lest we open ourselves up for far more examples that fall far outside the intended study of this forum.

Sorry. I disagree with some of you, but disagreement is not such a terrible thing.

[Mark]

I just made a post on the topic of what is "ethnographic" in this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...0177#post40177

[Philip]

I liked your definition on the other thread, but how about summarizing it and putting it in a "sticky" at the top of the Ethno board to remind us all?

I agree with Charles and some others that inclusion of any threads dealing with regulation-pattern military weapons, the products of Western or modernized
Asian factory systems, might dilute the unique ethnographic focus of this discussion board, and since there are other fora out there that devote themselves to such topics, the aficionadoes of these arms are in no wise being deprived if the subject matter is considered OT in this venue.

However, I relish the occasional inclusion of discussions of European blades (even if ex-military or exported-for-profit) since quite a few of these turn up hilted in African, Native American, and Asiatic fittings. It might be a case of intellectual inconsistency on my part, so I am girding for any potential tomatoes and dead cabbages flung in my direction.

[fenlander]

According to the dictionary.

eth·nog·ra·phy
–noun a branch of anthropology dealing with the scientific description of individual cultures.
[Origin: 1825–35; ethno- + -graphy]

According to the above definition.
I think European military swords fall well inside the descirption "Ethnographic arms and armour". Unless Europe has no culture!
However I think perhaps the forum should have a definition for the moderator's term of "ethnography".
A Germanic sword may help to shed light on a very small part of German culture. Just like a Mexican sword may help describe something about Mexican culture. No difference as far as I can see. I could be wrong though (not the first time) so enlighten me as to where this is incorrect ( i will sit under a tree).

[Philip]

Fenlander, I agree with your premise. But why not let the forum moderators come forward with an official policy containing the parameters if they think it desireable. I still think that posting it as a "sticky" is a good idea.

I suppose that Europe is already represented after a fact on the appropriate discussion board attached to this venue. However, I realize that some of the blades that we might find interesting in a certain context, such as Genoese saber blades with "eyelash" marks in Indian talwar hilts, won't fit into the "medieval" time frame either. A certain amount of flexibility and balanced judgement on the part of all us participants should forestall any "problems" of scope and interpretation.

[M ELEY]

I walk the line on this argument. While it would be sad to have this forum over-run with qustions on M1860 Ames cavalry sabers and British infantry swords, I believe that a smattering of them now and again reminds us of how ethnographic pieces affected the west and vice-versa. As someone has already pointed out, there a very specific sites for American civil war swords, for example. That being said, it is rather hard to strictly define what constitutes "ethnographic", especially based on one's own culture and perspective. We have had great discussions here on Romanian swords, Scottish basket hilts, colonial Spanish weapons, and "pirate" weapons in the past. With this open style, I think we all have learned for the better. If a forumite is completely dis-interested in Euro weapons, they can ignore the thread. Likewise, if there is an individual who inundates this site with a ton of such swords, their questions will undoubtedly be ignored for lack of interest or knowledge and they will go away. In brief, leave it like it is, but I am for a policy that more broadly defines ethno pieces to ones not mass-produced industrially. In this way, an unidentified dagger that turns out to be a Confederate bowie (and not a Philippine bolo, as many Confed pieces really turn out to be) can still generate fascinating discussions on form, use, etc. My 2 cents...

[VANDOO]

I COULD BE WRONG BUT I SUSPECT THAT THE FORUM WILL NOT BE SMOTHERED IN INQUIRES ABOUT SUCH WEAPONS. WE USED TO HAVE A SEPARATE CATAGORY FOR EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR ON THE FORUM AND IT LANGUISHED AWAY WITH SO FEW POSTS THAT IT WAS DISCONTINUED.

PERHAPS A STICKY WITH LINKS TO SITES DEALING WITH, GERMAN WEAPONS OLD AND NEW, JAPANESE, AMERICAN, ENGLISH,FRENCH,RUSSIAN, MIDEVEL, ECT. THAT WOULD GIVE POTENTIAL POSTERS A MORE SPECIFIC REFRENCE ON WHERE TO LOOK FOR THE KNOWLEGE THEY SEEK.

[Philip]

Mr. Eley
I would tend to think that most of us would stand by your view on the matter. General guidelines are fine, but insistence on dogmatic adherence immutable commandments, and the inevitable catfights that can result, are what we want to avoid. So far, I haven't seen this forum being "flooded" with posts dealing with bayonets, American Civil War sabers, or fraternal lodge swords so I think that we're doing just fine.

[fernando]

It looks like it is rather dificult to define in a sticky what is an ethnographic weapon without being arbitrarian or controversial. From what i see in the dictionaries, the term is more comprehensive than some wish to put it. It seems not to be necessarily rustic, or handcraft, but rather relative to Peoples customs habits and differences, in a general manner. As already aproached here, what is vulgar for an Arab, could be exotic for an European, and vice versa. A good nazi sword ( not the cheap stuff ) is so culturally interesting as a dha or a kris, or any other item often discussed here ... unless this is a restricted Forum, which is not the case, so far. It is impossible that weapons are not allways intrinsecally relative to religious or politic situations. But for what it matters in collecting, such implication deflects over the cuirasse of our indiference. As also aproached here, if a guy keeps posting specimens that do not belong to the general taste of the members, will soon be abandoned due to lack of interest ( that could well be my case ). But it should ( could ) be kept in mind that not all members limit their collections to only edged weapons, of only one or two types. I think this Forum is also open for general variety and general culture, and not just for speciality and scholarship in determined items. Let you not create an atmosphere where one is "afraid" to post images of a specimen, because it might not fall within the "selected" items.
The attached is a nice officer's parade saber, apparently made in the Wheimar period, later beautifully hand engraved and reintegrated in the the Nazi period, according to the backing history i had with it, when i bought in a local antiquarian.
fernando

[VANDOO]

I THINK WE ALL TEND TO THINK OF ETHINOGRAPHIC AS REFERING TO PRIMATIVE SIMPLE SOCIETYS OF TODAY OR IN THE PAST. IN FACT ALL SOCIETYS ARE ETHINOGRAPHIC REGARDLESS OF HOW ADVANCED OR PRIMATIVE THEY ARE. THERE ARE ALWAYS DIFFERENCES IN BELIEFS,TRADITIONS AND CRAFTS FROM ONE GROUP TO ANOTHER . MANKIND AND SOCIETY ARE NOT UNIFORM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND CHANGES WITH TIME AND TECKNOLOGY, BUT IS STILL ETHINOGRAPHIC IN MANY WAYS.

I PERSONALLY PREFER THE ITEMS FROM TIMES AND SOCIETYS NEARER THE TRIBAL DAYS. BUT WHAT OF THE KERIS OR KRIS AS WELL AS MANY OTHER WEAPONS YOU CAN'T CLASSIFY THOSE EARLY CIVILAZATIONS AS TRIBAL.

I THINK THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS NOT THE PLACE,TIME OR SOCIETY BUT THE TECKNOLOGY USED AND THE WAY IT HAS BEEN MADE. WHEN A LARGE MODERN FACTORY TURNS OUT A SUPPLY OF THOUSANDS OF SWORDS TO SUPPLY A MODERN ARMY WE SAY THATS NOT ETHINOGRAPHIC BUT MILITARY. SO AMERICAN ARMY SWORDS WOULD BE MILITARY ,HOWEVER SPEARS COULD BE MADE FOR A MUCH LARGER GROUP OF ZULU ALL TO THE SAME SPEC'S BUT BY SEVERAL FORGES USING MORE PRIMATIVE METHODS AND WOULD BE CALLED ETHINOGRAPHIC.

ITS A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE AND WE MIGHT FEEL INSULTED IF A COLLECTOR OF MILITARY BLADES CALLED OUR COLLECTION MILITARY AND HE WOULD NO DOUBT ARGUE IF I CALLED HIS COLLECTION ETHINOGRAPHIC.

OUR FORUM WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE EVERYTHING AND EVEN IF IT COULD IT WOULD JUST TAKE TOO MUCH TIME TO GO THRU ALL THE POSTS. SO IT IS BEST TO STAY LARGELY TO OUR TYPES OF INTREST TO KEEP THINGS FROM GETTING OVERLOADED OR BOGGED DOWN. THERE ARE NO DOUBT FORUMS SOMEWHERE FOR MOST INTRESTS AND IT IS BEST TO KEEP THINGS SEPARATED. ITS KIND OF LIKE HAVING FOLDERS WITH LIKE THINGS IN THEM FOR EASE OF USE VERSES A BIG PILE WITH EVERYTHING IN IT WHERE NOTHING CAN BE EASILY FOUND.

[M ELEY]

Point well taken, Barry, but what of colonial American swords, for instance. These types of swords are often one-of-a-kind, blacksmith-made, often from other sword parts and constitute a kind of folk art. They, like ethnographic pieces, are often misunderstood and there are very few sites that cover them. Likewise, colonial Spanish/Mexican pieces are, IMHO, fascinating and ethnographic. As I said earlier, a Model 1899 such and such doesn't belong here, but the occasional NON-TRIBAL weapon adds color and perspective occasionally.

[VANDOO]

YOU ARE CORRECT THAT WEAPONS MADE LOCALLY BY A PERSON OR BLACKSMITH CAN BE ONE OF A KIND AND VARY A LOT IN QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP AND DESIGN. THEY WOULD ALSO FALL UNDER ETHINOGRAPHIC I SUPPOSE AS I WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT OTHER CATAGORY TO PUT THEM IN EXCEPT CUSTOM KNIVES

THE ONLY ADVANTAGE THE COLLECTORS OF MORE MODERN MILITARY EDGED WEAPONS HAVE OVER US IS OFTEN THERE ARE TRAINING MANUALS GIVING INSTRUCTIONS ON THEIR PROPPER USE. WE ON THE OTHER HAND HAVE NO MANUALS AND MUST GO BY THE FEW OLD PERIOD ARTICLES WRITTEN ABOUT THEM. THE MOVEMENTS IN TRIBAL DANCES HAVING TO DO WITH WARRIORS OR OLD PICTURES OR SCULPTURE ON POTTERY OR WALLS ,ECT.
MARTIAL ARTS TRY TO FOLLOW THE OLD MOVES BUT AS NO TWO INDIVIDUALS DO IT EXACTLY THE SAME IT CHANGES A LITTLE OVER THE YEARS. THERE IS NO WAY TO BE SURE IF A MARTIAL ART HAS IMPROVED OVER THE ORIGINAL FORM OR HAS LOST KNOWLEGE AND TECKNIQUE AND MAY HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLENCE TO THE OLD FORM. IT MOSTLY HAS TO DO WITH THE MASTER TEACHING IT AND HIS ABILITYS AS A FIGHTER AND ESPECIALLY AS A TEACHER. IT IS MUCH EASIER TO TRAIN A GOOD FIGHTER THAN IT IS TO TRAIN A GOOD TEACHER AND INOVATORS ARE RARE EVEN AMONG GOOD TEACHERS.

FIGHTING TECKNIQUES WILL STILL REMAIN NEAR THE SAME EVEN IF YOU ARE STARTING WITH NO KNOWLEGE OF THE WEAPON. WE SIMPLY TRY ALL THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT OTHER WEAPONS AND TRY THEM AND SEE WHICH TECKNIQUES WORK BEST WITH THAT PARTICULAR WEAPON. IT DOES TAKE TIME AND A PERSON EXPERIENCED WITH WEAPONS AND NOT TOO SET IN HIS OLD TRAINING TO DO IT. FOR EXAMPLE A CHAMPION FENCER WOULD FIND FEW OF HIS TECKNIQUES WOULD WORK WELL WITH SOME WEAPONS AND WOULD HAVE TO BE FLEXABLE AND ADAPT TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW IT WOULD WORK BEST IN A FIGHT.

OH WELL! OFF TOPIC I GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER

[CharlesS]

I collected Imperial German and Nazi militaria for years before deciding to sell it and collect exclusively ethnographic blades. The fact that a Nazi sword has appeared here I find both confusing and disappointing, even somewhat offensive....a 100% machine made sword that shows no hint of the nature of the original craftsman's touch(except maybe his politics!!)

Note the subdivisions of our title page....takoubas, koumayas, keris, shamshir, dao, dhas, etc.....each at some level with a hint of a human touch that distinguishes it as unique, perhaps one of a kind, and certainly characteristic of a genre of weapons from a certain geographical region.

The Nazi sword identifies a machine made piece, from a 12 year era, never intended to actually be used, and other than its politcal persuasion, nothing about it is particularly unique from any other dress swords from the industrialized world of the same period.

Is this really what we want here? I do not argue with the collection of such pieces, afterall, I used to do it myself, but I do argue that this simply is NOT the venue for it any more than it is the correct venue for an M-16 bayonet.

Sure, it was just an "example" of another supposedly ethnographic piece, but surely I am not the only one that sees the irony of a Nazi sword on this forum....just a little piece of history from a political mentality that would have seen the populations and producers of the weapons most of us collect as 2nd or 3rd class citizens of the world, most marked as "sub-human", and many marked for eventual extermination. Sure the Nazis were not history's only "haters", but thay set a standard for it that has yet to be remotely equalled.

Is this really a door we want to open?

I would be more sympathetic if I thought there were no other venues for modern, even Nazi pieces, to be illustrated, explored and discussed, but there are, and I see nothing wrong with us having our own humble "corner" of the world wide web to explore something else.

[fenlander]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I am not the only one that sees the irony of a Nazi sword on this forum....just a little piece of history from a political mentality that would have seen the populations and producers of the weapons most of us collect as 2nd or 3rd class citizens of the world, most marked as "sub-human", and many marked for eventual extermination. Sure the Nazis were not history's only "haters", but thay set a standard for it that has yet to be remotely equalled.

Is this really a door we want to open?

I would be more sympathetic if I thought there were no other venues for modern, even Nazi pieces, to be illustrated, explored and discussed, but there are, and I see nothing wrong with us having our own humble "corner" of the world wide web to explore something else.

I agree with your points that mass produced swords, perhaps should not be on this forum. But please can't you leave ethics out of it? There have been plenty of regimes as bad as the nazis. Ghenghis Khan wiped out and exterminated entire cities that did not surrender. The Japnanese did depraved things in Nanking on an unimaginable scale. Have you seen the news clips of the time ? Stalin did the same. Yes of course what the nazis did was disgusting and depraved but so where many other things from history. Should we ban everything from this forum based on, if that particlular regime or civilization was "evil"? If the weapon should not appear on here because it mass produced for example then yes that is a good point. But we certainly should not be banning weapons coming onto this forum because they came from a regime that was "evil". We are talking about swords and knives, these were mostly designed to do nasty things to other people. Lets keep this to swords and knives; not which weapons of which regimes and cultures are pollitically correct to discuss.
Next we will be banning discussion of satanic knives because Roman catholics find it offensive.

[fernando]

Hi CharlesS
I will refrain from rebating the full extent of your post, but i can not go without exercizing some response:
Let me be the one to be confused and ofended with your incisive considerations, once you assume having collected Imperial German and Nazi militaria for years. I have only the example i posted above, ethnographic or not, and i don't and never did fancy such culture. Therefore i fail to understand your sudden pertinency to produce lessons of moral.

[Andrew]

Let's get this discussion back on track, please.

Some things lend themselves more readily to discussion here than others. This does not, necessarily, mean we shouldn't discuss them; just that we should do so carefully and thoughtfully. Sometimes this can be difficult.

Personally, I don't care to even look at Nazi weapons, let alone discuss them. If I didn't moderate this forum, I wouldn't even read this thread.

[CharlesS]

Fernando and Andrew,

Fernando, if you will read my previous post more carefully you will find that it is not an attack on you, nor other collectors of Nazi militaria, nor is it any morality statement. It is the simple assertion that in my opinion that piece as well as other mass produced 20 Cent. pieces are better discussed on another site, and not here, for any number of different reasons. I believe you have misinterpreted some things I said as some sort of attack on you or others. It was not.

Andrew, my apologies if this is a thread 'gone amok', but I felt my statement needed clarification after Fernando's response. I hope to say no more about it.