Help needed with a Mamluk kilij

Roland_M · 17th October 2014, 03:01 PM

Dear forum members,

Back with an new computer and here is one of my last acquisitions.

It is a Mamluk sword of nice quality, I think it was made between the 16th and 18th century.
The steel is high quality, it is very sharp wootz but not soft and also not brittle. I have an Indian wootz-tulwar, which is much softer than this blade.
The kilij is differential hardened, with a weak hamon. The tip seems to be separately hardened.
The steel is very tough, it took more than 80 hours to polish the blade up to a grit of 5.000. The tulwar took only 20-25 hours to reach the same level of polish. The starting condition was almost similar.
I used Seno 3207 Fine-Etch-Crystal (Sodium persulfate) for etching the blade, which brings out the finest details but no color-contrast. Normally all the blades treated with Seno 3207 have a grey to black finish after etching, but only this one have a golden glimmer. I read, that this was the most desired type of wootz in the old days. It is hard to see, maybe the sword have the Kirk Narduban pattern.

My questions are the following:
1: Can anybody explain the grey lines, which i highlighted?

2: What ist the best way to etch this blade? I plan to make a solution with 5% Nitric acid and 5% Fecl3 in ethanol. I will fill the solution in a pipe and dive the blade into the solution for ~5 seconds. But i am quite anxious, because the blade is so rare and valuable. The polishing was finished in early september, but i am to fearful to etch the blade. The first attempt was to weak und nonuniform.

The Pictures:
Kilidsch_0 is the whole blade directly after etching
Kilidsch polished and unpolished should be clear
Kilidsch1 is the front area with the hardening pattern
Klidsch3a shows clearly the grey lines i mentioned
Kilidsch4 is the blade after cleaning with Autosol Metal-Polish

I am very sorry for the bad pictures. Originally they were made only for my personal documentation.

Measurements:
Length of sword without the handle: 82 cm or 32,3 inches
Balance point: ~25 cm or 9,8 inches from crossguard
Weight: 965g or ~34 oz.

Best wishes
Roland

ALEX · 17th October 2014, 09:00 PM

Roland,
The blade is certainly tempered/heat-treated if it is that tough. My first impression was that it is sheer steel or sham wootz, although it has appearance of wootz near the edge. The fact that initial etch did not improve the pattern also indicative of that. Let's hope better etch will reveal it better.
There is no need to submerge the whole blade in the tube, I think it is not necessary in case of one sword. The same result can be achieved just by applying the etchant with the brush or cotton cloth.
I also noticed the central fuller... not exactly as I'd expect on early Ottoman blade...
... just initial observations at this point.
Are those gray lines part of the pattern or incised/cut on the surface?
Great job polishing the blade by the way. Outstanding!
--
Also, can we see closeup of the hilt and cross? Is handle made of stone or hardwood?

A.alnakkas · 18th October 2014, 03:06 AM

I think its wootz, not shear steel. Though dont think its Mamluke, the fullering and the dots is more similar to northern Indian/Afghan types.

Can we see more of the hilt please?

ALEX · 18th October 2014, 07:36 AM

Good observation! the blade remainds of what one would expext on Indian/Afghan pulowar. I also think it is not Ottoman. The steel could be sham wootz, but need to see more.

Kurt · 18th October 2014, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good observation! the blade remainds of what one would expext on Indian/Afghan pulowar. I also think it is not Ottoman. The steel could be sham wootz, but need to see more.

Hi Alex ,
This is an Ottoman Karabela end of 17 century.
Kurt

ALEX · 18th October 2014, 02:27 PM

Kurt, speaking of blade only - below is a typical Afghan pulowar with Kilij profile, false edge and central fuller. I cannot recall early Ottoman blade with narrowly cut central fuller like this. Those have much better, more elaborate fullers... just a thought

Andrew · 22nd October 2014, 01:58 PM

Roland, does the blade of your original sword have an un-sharpened ricasso?

ariel · 22nd October 2014, 05:02 PM

Roland,
Andrew asked a very good question.

In general, the so-caled "eastern" swords were very often of a saber pattern: curved and with the edge on the convex side.

Some had the so-called "yelman", ie widened part of the blade close to he tip, often sharpened on both sides.

The problem is that these 2 features are seen on the blades from all over, from N. Africa to India, and cannot pinpoint the origin and the age of the sword. As Alex has stressed, the devil is in the details: width, length, thickness, T-structure, structure of the fullers, other incisions, inscriptions, materials, etc, etc, etc.

Yours is definitely not Mamluk ( Egypt, Syria, parts of Iraq). IMXO, it was assembled from an old ( 19th cen) N. Indian blade and modern everything else. If you do not want to accept the opinions of several Forumites with rather extensive experience, nobody can or wishes to force you.

But just for the future:
- All of us got fooled, especially at the beginning of our collecting careers. You are not alone, old son :-(
- There is no substitute for experience and reading, reading, reading.... Any collector should have more books than collected objects.
- Never accept seller's description at face value
- Never try to convince yourself that an object you desperately want is genuine despite obviously glaring features to he contrary ( in your case, how could a Mamluk,- ie very, very old,- sword have completely pristine handle and crossguard?)
- If an object looks and costs too good to be true, it usually is.
- Repeat these points 5 times before making any bid.
- This will decrease your "wall of shame" rate by 90%, but, unfortunately, you ( just like all of us) will still be " had" occasionally. High-class museums ( including Wallace Collection) fell prey to even higher-class forgers. At the end of the day, no defensive armour can withstand a good offence by a blade.

All the best.

Sancar · 22nd October 2014, 05:43 PM

I also agree with everyone above. This is not a memlük kilij. But this is still a beautiful wootz blade. As long as you did not pay too much above its worth, you have no reason to be sad about it.

A.alnakkas · 23rd October 2014, 03:29 AM

I actually fell for such a karabela once! but it had a high carbon steel blade with a Yelman... will try to find photos, I dont remember the blade exactly but it wasnt as good as this one. Would have sucked if the item I returned had such a good blade lol.

17th October 2014, 03:01 PM	#1
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 523	Help needed with a Mamluk kilij Dear forum members, Back with an new computer and here is one of my last acquisitions. It is a Mamluk sword of nice quality, I think it was made between the 16th and 18th century. The steel is high quality, it is very sharp wootz but not soft and also not brittle. I have an Indian wootz-tulwar, which is much softer than this blade. The kilij is differential hardened, with a weak hamon. The tip seems to be separately hardened. The steel is very tough, it took more than 80 hours to polish the blade up to a grit of 5.000. The tulwar took only 20-25 hours to reach the same level of polish. The starting condition was almost similar. I used Seno 3207 Fine-Etch-Crystal (Sodium persulfate) for etching the blade, which brings out the finest details but no color-contrast. Normally all the blades treated with Seno 3207 have a grey to black finish after etching, but only this one have a golden glimmer. I read, that this was the most desired type of wootz in the old days. It is hard to see, maybe the sword have the Kirk Narduban pattern. My questions are the following: 1: Can anybody explain the grey lines, which i highlighted? 2: What ist the best way to etch this blade? I plan to make a solution with 5% Nitric acid and 5% Fecl3 in ethanol. I will fill the solution in a pipe and dive the blade into the solution for ~5 seconds. But i am quite anxious, because the blade is so rare and valuable. The polishing was finished in early september, but i am to fearful to etch the blade. The first attempt was to weak und nonuniform. The Pictures: Kilidsch_0 is the whole blade directly after etching Kilidsch polished and unpolished should be clear Kilidsch1 is the front area with the hardening pattern Klidsch3a shows clearly the grey lines i mentioned Kilidsch4 is the blade after cleaning with Autosol Metal-Polish I am very sorry for the bad pictures. Originally they were made only for my personal documentation. Measurements: Length of sword without the handle: 82 cm or 32,3 inches Balance point: ~25 cm or 9,8 inches from crossguard Weight: 965g or ~34 oz. Best wishes Roland Attached Images

18th October 2014, 02:27 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Kurt, speaking of blade only - below is a typical Afghan pulowar with Kilij profile, false edge and central fuller. I cannot recall early Ottoman blade with narrowly cut central fuller like this. Those have much better, more elaborate fullers... just a thought Attached Images

17th October 2014, 09:00 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Roland, The blade is certainly tempered/heat-treated if it is that tough. My first impression was that it is sheer steel or sham wootz, although it has appearance of wootz near the edge. The fact that initial etch did not improve the pattern also indicative of that. Let's hope better etch will reveal it better. There is no need to submerge the whole blade in the tube, I think it is not necessary in case of one sword. The same result can be achieved just by applying the etchant with the brush or cotton cloth. I also noticed the central fuller... not exactly as I'd expect on early Ottoman blade... ... just initial observations at this point. Are those gray lines part of the pattern or incised/cut on the surface? Great job polishing the blade by the way. Outstanding! -- Also, can we see closeup of the hilt and cross? Is handle made of stone or hardwood?

18th October 2014, 03:06 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	I think its wootz, not shear steel. Though dont think its Mamluke, the fullering and the dots is more similar to northern Indian/Afghan types. Can we see more of the hilt please?

18th October 2014, 07:36 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Good observation! the blade remainds of what one would expext on Indian/Afghan pulowar. I also think it is not Ottoman. The steel could be sham wootz, but need to see more.

22nd October 2014, 01:58 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Roland, does the blade of your original sword have an un-sharpened ricasso?

22nd October 2014, 05:02 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Roland, Andrew asked a very good question. In general, the so-caled "eastern" swords were very often of a saber pattern: curved and with the edge on the convex side. Some had the so-called "yelman", ie widened part of the blade close to he tip, often sharpened on both sides. The problem is that these 2 features are seen on the blades from all over, from N. Africa to India, and cannot pinpoint the origin and the age of the sword. As Alex has stressed, the devil is in the details: width, length, thickness, T-structure, structure of the fullers, other incisions, inscriptions, materials, etc, etc, etc. Yours is definitely not Mamluk ( Egypt, Syria, parts of Iraq). IMXO, it was assembled from an old ( 19th cen) N. Indian blade and modern everything else. If you do not want to accept the opinions of several Forumites with rather extensive experience, nobody can or wishes to force you. But just for the future: - All of us got fooled, especially at the beginning of our collecting careers. You are not alone, old son :-( - There is no substitute for experience and reading, reading, reading.... Any collector should have more books than collected objects. - Never accept seller's description at face value - Never try to convince yourself that an object you desperately want is genuine despite obviously glaring features to he contrary ( in your case, how could a Mamluk,- ie very, very old,- sword have completely pristine handle and crossguard?) - If an object looks and costs too good to be true, it usually is. - Repeat these points 5 times before making any bid. - This will decrease your "wall of shame" rate by 90%, but, unfortunately, you ( just like all of us) will still be " had" occasionally. High-class museums ( including Wallace Collection) fell prey to even higher-class forgers. At the end of the day, no defensive armour can withstand a good offence by a blade. All the best.

22nd October 2014, 05:43 PM	#9
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I also agree with everyone above. This is not a memlük kilij. But this is still a beautiful wootz blade. As long as you did not pay too much above its worth, you have no reason to be sad about it.

23rd October 2014, 03:29 AM	#10
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	I actually fell for such a karabela once! but it had a high carbon steel blade with a Yelman... will try to find photos, I dont remember the blade exactly but it wasnt as good as this one. Would have sucked if the item I returned had such a good blade lol.