PI Kris for ID and Comments - Page 2

Federico · 12th March 2005, 01:09 AM

Spunjer, the smell you were smelling could have been pitch burning between the gangya and blade. Something that has come up after working with a number of Moro Kris, is that rotation of the gangya may have been a big concern (I personally wonder if that is the true purpose of the asang-asang to prevent rotation vs securing the blade to the hilt). Anyways, most kris that have a good seal between blade and separate gangya, there is a thin layer of pitch securing the two together (ever wonder why the separate gangya just doesnt fall off a bare blade). It is normally well protected from heat, due to the thickness of the gangya and that portion of the blade, but enough direct heat will get it to bubble.

Moose, not Battara, but in my experience with dis-assembled kris, many asang-asang tails (for lack of a better word), when a separate strip than the asang-asang (eg. a copper tail), have been tied to the tang, and inserted into the puhan. I have also seen some with just long enough tails that go just under the ferrule, not much further (not tied to the tang). For one piece asang-asang, usually the iron ones from Mindanao, those tend to go along side the handle, and then hidden by the handle wrap. I have seen two piece asang-asang done similarly, but in most cases they were after market changes, and not the original configuration (would be easier to do than removing the whole hilt). Then again there are always exceptions.

Rick · 12th March 2005, 02:19 AM

Here is an example of the asang asang tail running up outside of the hilt , notice that it also acts as a tensioning device to keep the silver wire wrap tight .

zamboanga · 13th March 2005, 03:28 AM

hi everyone,

i do not know if this has been discussed earlier. Is the placement of the asang-asang tail an indication of whether a kris is modern (aka tourist) or antique?

someone said to me that authentic krises have their tails wrapped on the side of the puhan and not inserted with the tang into the puhan. for the purpose of the tail daw is to hold the handle inseparable with the blade. if the tail is inserted along with the tang then it does not serve its purpose.

any comments?

Federico · 13th March 2005, 04:37 AM

I dont think asang-asang placement would be a good indication of age, perse. Though it would be a good sign of originality. It is much harder to put the tails (having done this) on the inside with the tang, than trying to wrap them under the hilt. This requires complete removal of the hilt, vs Ive seen many under the wrap jobs that were done with the hilt on. I just dont buy the whole they are there to secure the blade to hilt. Similar attachment is used for kris, barong, kampilan (much bigger blade more torque), yet why the kris the only one with extra support. Also, aside from the iron one piece clamps, many asang-asang are rather flimsy, very thin tales, and often the clamps themselves are not solid, but rather a thin stock that has been repoussed out and then filled with pitch. Also, we can note the durablity of blades that have lost their clamps. However, of course we could explain that clamps on modern pieces are just vestigual tradition, eg. the new pieces dont need em just have em because the early ones did. However, examining my own early kris, hilt security isnt the big problem, but rather rotation. Though these are just my observations from having handled a number of kris that had been taken apart.

Bill · 13th March 2005, 11:55 AM

Zonneveld's book has a old kris on pg 16 that has the stem of the stirrup go into a horn hilt. The tang is retangular and the stirrup appears to have some age but could have been a replacement to go with an updated hilt; but it seems to be somewhat of a puzzel. If rotation is a problem, I think the blade flying out of the hilt would be next. I think the second example that Moose posted is a kris clearly made to have the stirup (& is also a slashing sword), where with some "18thC" kris, I think it is a add on. So, you've got rotation, seperation of hilt & blade, seperation of guard & blade (may have been a large factor, if the spirit were to get out), & it would even add to the strength of the hilt when striking. I'll add one more: I believe the origination of the kris was for beheading, its earlist form was with a small round tang; if you used it in a sawing manner you would likely pull the hilt right off the tang. Up-grading the tang to the "robust" round tang solves a strength issue but the stirrup would still be needed for the "pulling" motions. Development of the oval & then the retangular tang would still have the "pulling" issues; but now it has fully developed from a thrusting & beheading sword to a slashing sword & new benefits are found. So I would have to say that with all the benefits of the stirrup, it was bound to become traditional.

Bill · 13th March 2005, 12:16 PM

Almost forgot, you also have the pulling motion (originally a thrusting sword) of removing the sword from a person. If already dying, & wearing armor, someone impalled grabs the blade, the sword may have needed some effort to remove. Sort of like Magellan's very last problem.

RSWORD · 13th March 2005, 07:34 PM

I wanted to comment on the 2nd Keris Moose pictures. It is a really nice sword and I would say there is a good chance that the center section of the blade might have some interesting lamination. These blades are often of sandwhich lamination where you have a central core of laminated, twist core or mechanical damascus steel with high carbon edges. Here is a section of blade from a piece in my collection that also has the diminutive kakatua pommel and the 18th century style blade. The pattern that came out in the central panel is pretty neat.

Rick · 13th March 2005, 08:22 PM

Here's another example of what may be hidden .

Pardon the poor photography .

Battara · 15th March 2005, 02:20 AM

Regarding the asang-asang tails, I agree with Federico. I have observed the same thing. In fact, some asang-asang have been removed at a later time or replaced depending on the rise of status of the owner. One exception I would mention is the type of asang-asang that is of twisted silver - so far I have seen these only on 18c Moro kris.

12th March 2005, 02:19 AM	#32
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Here is an example of the asang asang tail running up outside of the hilt , notice that it also acts as a tensioning device to keep the silver wire wrap tight . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 12th March 2005 at 02:40 AM.

13th March 2005, 03:28 AM	#33
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	placement of asang-asang tail hi everyone, i do not know if this has been discussed earlier. Is the placement of the asang-asang tail an indication of whether a kris is modern (aka tourist) or antique? someone said to me that authentic krises have their tails wrapped on the side of the puhan and not inserted with the tang into the puhan. for the purpose of the tail daw is to hold the handle inseparable with the blade. if the tail is inserted along with the tang then it does not serve its purpose. any comments?

13th March 2005, 07:34 PM	#37
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I wanted to comment on the 2nd Keris Moose pictures. It is a really nice sword and I would say there is a good chance that the center section of the blade might have some interesting lamination. These blades are often of sandwhich lamination where you have a central core of laminated, twist core or mechanical damascus steel with high carbon edges. Here is a section of blade from a piece in my collection that also has the diminutive kakatua pommel and the 18th century style blade. The pattern that came out in the central panel is pretty neat. Attached Images

13th March 2005, 08:22 PM	#38
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Here's another example of what may be hidden . Pardon the poor photography . Attached Images

12th March 2005, 01:09 AM	#31
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Spunjer, the smell you were smelling could have been pitch burning between the gangya and blade. Something that has come up after working with a number of Moro Kris, is that rotation of the gangya may have been a big concern (I personally wonder if that is the true purpose of the asang-asang to prevent rotation vs securing the blade to the hilt). Anyways, most kris that have a good seal between blade and separate gangya, there is a thin layer of pitch securing the two together (ever wonder why the separate gangya just doesnt fall off a bare blade). It is normally well protected from heat, due to the thickness of the gangya and that portion of the blade, but enough direct heat will get it to bubble. Moose, not Battara, but in my experience with dis-assembled kris, many asang-asang tails (for lack of a better word), when a separate strip than the asang-asang (eg. a copper tail), have been tied to the tang, and inserted into the puhan. I have also seen some with just long enough tails that go just under the ferrule, not much further (not tied to the tang). For one piece asang-asang, usually the iron ones from Mindanao, those tend to go along side the handle, and then hidden by the handle wrap. I have seen two piece asang-asang done similarly, but in most cases they were after market changes, and not the original configuration (would be easier to do than removing the whole hilt). Then again there are always exceptions.

13th March 2005, 04:37 AM	#34
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I dont think asang-asang placement would be a good indication of age, perse. Though it would be a good sign of originality. It is much harder to put the tails (having done this) on the inside with the tang, than trying to wrap them under the hilt. This requires complete removal of the hilt, vs Ive seen many under the wrap jobs that were done with the hilt on. I just dont buy the whole they are there to secure the blade to hilt. Similar attachment is used for kris, barong, kampilan (much bigger blade more torque), yet why the kris the only one with extra support. Also, aside from the iron one piece clamps, many asang-asang are rather flimsy, very thin tales, and often the clamps themselves are not solid, but rather a thin stock that has been repoussed out and then filled with pitch. Also, we can note the durablity of blades that have lost their clamps. However, of course we could explain that clamps on modern pieces are just vestigual tradition, eg. the new pieces dont need em just have em because the early ones did. However, examining my own early kris, hilt security isnt the big problem, but rather rotation. Though these are just my observations from having handled a number of kris that had been taken apart.

13th March 2005, 11:55 AM	#35
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Zonneveld's book has a old kris on pg 16 that has the stem of the stirrup go into a horn hilt. The tang is retangular and the stirrup appears to have some age but could have been a replacement to go with an updated hilt; but it seems to be somewhat of a puzzel. If rotation is a problem, I think the blade flying out of the hilt would be next. I think the second example that Moose posted is a kris clearly made to have the stirup (& is also a slashing sword), where with some "18thC" kris, I think it is a add on. So, you've got rotation, seperation of hilt & blade, seperation of guard & blade (may have been a large factor, if the spirit were to get out), & it would even add to the strength of the hilt when striking. I'll add one more: I believe the origination of the kris was for beheading, its earlist form was with a small round tang; if you used it in a sawing manner you would likely pull the hilt right off the tang. Up-grading the tang to the "robust" round tang solves a strength issue but the stirrup would still be needed for the "pulling" motions. Development of the oval & then the retangular tang would still have the "pulling" issues; but now it has fully developed from a thrusting & beheading sword to a slashing sword & new benefits are found. So I would have to say that with all the benefits of the stirrup, it was bound to become traditional.

13th March 2005, 12:16 PM	#36
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Almost forgot, you also have the pulling motion (originally a thrusting sword) of removing the sword from a person. If already dying, & wearing armor, someone impalled grabs the blade, the sword may have needed some effort to remove. Sort of like Magellan's very last problem.

15th March 2005, 02:20 AM	#39
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Regarding the asang-asang tails, I agree with Federico. I have observed the same thing. In fact, some asang-asang have been removed at a later time or replaced depending on the rise of status of the owner. One exception I would mention is the type of asang-asang that is of twisted silver - so far I have seen these only on 18c Moro kris.