Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 29th June 2011, 12:27 PM   #1
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,637
Default Sea cow used for Iban hilts

I just had three Swedish and German blade smiths visiting me to study some of my Indonesian and Filipino blades. We had a great time and I also learned a lot on how some of my blades were made, why it has this or that shape and how some of the twist core and laminations are done etc.
One eye opener for me was that two of my Iban hilts are made of sea cow bone, not antler as I always considered all Dayak hilts to be made from without even reflecting about it. Actually when it was brought up it was easy to spot the other hilt as the colour is totally different than from the whiter antler hilts.
By coincidence (or maybe not?) both of them are Iban/Sea Dayak and both of them are on Langgai Tinggangs.
Maybe someone else will discover this material on their hilts too?

Michael
Attached Images
      
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2011, 12:47 PM   #2
Royston
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Poole England
Posts: 441
Default

Michael

Very nice hilt. What tells you it is sea cow and not antler apart from the colour which could just be a factor of age and use ? or is this another definite / maybe scenario ?

I have something which looks similar, I always thought it was antler, but now you have me doubting

Regards
Roy
Royston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2011, 12:57 PM   #3
Maurice
Member
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
Default

Interesting Michael!

I noticed the different in colours of "antler" handles before, but I always thought it might be that the antler had different colours by itself?
I've seen them by very "teeth"white to very darkbrown. A friendcollector told me once that the whiter pieces have seen a lot more sun as the pieces with darker handles which probably were more used in the forests as in open area where sunlight was shining.....(but I don't know if this is true and what his source was for this statement).

Let's suppose this would be sea cow, from which part could it be than?
Is there also seen a difference in material/structure, besides of the colour?

Maurice
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2011, 01:51 PM   #4
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,637
Default

According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?).

Michael
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2011, 02:36 PM   #5
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Thumbs up

VERY INTERESTING!! I HAVE ALWAYS ADDED THE FACTS ON THE SIZE OF SEA COW TEETH TO ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY OF THEIR BEING BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE IVORY KERIS HILTS OR MOST OTHER HILTS.
USING SEA COW BONE HAS NOT COME UP BEFORE BUT AS THE ANIMAL IS LARGE AND THE BONES LARGE ENOUGH AND DENSE ENOUGH FOR USE AS MANDAU HANDLES AND OTHER ITEMS AS WELL. THE SEA COW HAS BEEN HUNTED FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS STILL HUNTED IN MANY AREAS. TODAY IT IS HUNTED FOR FOOD IN MOST REGIONS WHERE IT OCCURS.
SO IT IS LIKELY THE BONE COULD BE USED AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND PERHAPS EASIER TO OBTAIN THAN DEER ANTLER FOR VILLAGES NEAR THE SEA AND RIVERS.
A LOCAL WHO HAS WORKED WITH ANTLER AND SEA COW WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BUT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO AS ALL I HAVE STUDIED HAS BEEN FOSSILIZED. THANKS FOR THIS INTERESTING POST IT IS NEW KNOWLEGE TO ME.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2011, 02:41 PM   #6
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default Given the nature

Given the nature of practices of old and the easy availability of bone, could these hilts not be Human bone
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2011, 04:33 PM   #7
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
Hello Michael,

Can this smith send examples of seacow bone for comparisson ?
To me almost all bones are spongy inside. and colour can be influenced by a lot of things.
It would be interesting to know if there is a very clear difference in structure.

Ps. if he uses seacow bone, is this new or old ? aren't seacows protected species ?

Best regards,
Willem
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2011, 04:05 PM   #8
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?).

Michael
I am not denying the possibility of this, however i'm not sure that i am prepared to accept this without question based on the identification od a single smith who has used the material in his own blades. As has been mentioned, just about all bone and antler has a spongy appearance on the interior and color is very dependent upon environmental circumstance.
Now, if you can get a marine biologist to make the same ID....
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2011, 09:37 PM   #9
fearn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
Default

It being summer, I'd suggest taking this piece to the nearest large natural history museum or major university with a large zoology department. In your country, that is (see last paragraph). What you want is someone with a dugong skeleton on hand, to compare the piece with.

The issue is that most of it is so sculpted that it will be difficult to tell if it is a dugong vertebra (top of the back) or not, without that same vertebra to compare it in three dimensions (which willl present an opportunity for some great photos, incidentally). Oddly enough, museums tend to have such skeletons around, or to know who does have them. In my experience, if they're not too busy, they also enjoy puzzles like determining the source of a bone.

I'm a little puzzled, because dugong ribs (not vertebrae) have a reputation for being unusually dense. So far as I know, they act to ballast the animals in the water. Unfortunately, it's been handled so much that non-destructive DNA sampling will simply pick up human DNA.

As for legal status, yes, dugongs are in Appendix 1 of CITES, which is the most restrictive one.

Best,

F
fearn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st July 2011, 12:45 AM   #10
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Default

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE IF THEY CATCH A SEA TURTLE OR SEA COW THE FAMILY EATS WELL. BUT MOSTLY THEY LIVE ON MORE SIMPLE OR BLAND FARE. I HAVE SEEN BOTH SEA TURTLE AND DUGONG SKELETONS IN TRASH HEAPS IN SEVERAL PLACES SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE.
I AM DEFINITELY FOR PROTECTING ENDANGERED SPECIES BUT I CAN'T BLAME A MAN LIVING IN A PRIMATIVE SOCIETY FOR TAKEING WHAT NATURE HAS BROUGHT HIM AND HIS ANCESTORS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES. OFTEN THE LAW TAKES THIS INTO CONSIDERATION AND SOME TRIBES ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT AND TAKE A CERTIAN PROTECTED SPECIES IN REGULATED NUMBERS SO THE POPULATION IS NOT IMPACTED MUCH.
I DO HATE TO SEE SOMETHING USEFUL AND COOL THROWN INTO THE TRASH HEAP, OR LAYING BY THE ROADSIDE TO ROT AND WASTED BUT THATS THE LAW.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2011, 11:44 PM   #11
napoleon
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 88
Cool sea cow hilts

thank you for sharing this,i will have to dig out my dyak swords and have a closer look,i never knew before reading this post that they used sea cow i also assumed it was stag they were made from . regards napoleon
napoleon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2011, 10:16 AM   #12
Mytribalworld
Member
 
Mytribalworld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 400
Default

Hi Michael,

I strongly doubt the whole Steller seacow story:

A: Its an artic living animal and of course its p[ossible that someone exported the bones to Borneo but actually I don't see any reason for that.
It should make the handle extra expensive while dearantler has almost the same effect.

B: the structure /grain of your examples are following the fork shape while a handle from seacow most likely should have all the grain in one line.

C: dearantler can be enourmous various in quality and color and it looks to me that ( the Kenya like) is carved quite near the spongeous centre.
If you come closer to that centre you have indeed more "bonelike" structure on the surface.

D: What I doubt if a animistic Dayak would easily accept to take a "dead ?'' bone from an animal he doesn't know and carve from that a handle that he carry with him the whole day.
Antler has a special reason as its one of the "fastgrowers" ( like hair, nails,tusks, horn) and so "loaded" with "living power",sometimes also special kinds of wood ( specially shaped roots etc).

E: About that human bone handles, maybe they are human and seacow as well, carved from the bone from an anourmous fat lady.....




Arjan
Mytribalworld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2011, 10:41 AM   #13
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,637
Default

Arjan,

On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo.
I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions.
Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places )
If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea).
This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow).

Michael
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2011, 11:27 AM   #14
Mytribalworld
Member
 
Mytribalworld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Arjan,

On Steller's sea cow he doesn't claim that mine are that, only sea cow. The dugong, the one of the living species closest to Steller's, is found outside Borneo.
I am not a "hilt-material guy" myself so I will probably put you into contact with one that is and then it would be interesting to read your conclusions.
Your words "animistic Dayak" reminded me of an idea I got when he first told me about it being sea cow (Alan, please don't read this because I am speculating based on documented folklore from neighbouring places )
If you are in the forest you want to have hilt material made from wood or a forest animal not to disturb the ruler of the forest. But if you are planning to join a pirate trip on the sea the ruler of the sea would be very angry if you had a hilt from a land based animal on your sword and ship (wood seems to be neutral being found both in the forest and drifting around on the sea).
This corresponds to the beliefs of the Malay fishermen who even had a special language to avoid mentioning land based animals when on the sea not to disturb the ruler of the sea. One version is the one studied (Annandale 1903) in Patani and Pahang where for instance a horse was renamed chehweh dras (= fishing language prefix + fast) and a buddhist monk chehweh kuning (prefix + yellow).

Michael
But that should include that most seadayaks never travelled the sea with their deerantler handled swords and that those with the seacow handled sword never saw their wife and kids on the land.
If I must choose between an angry sea and an angry wife...... Hmmmmm....
Mytribalworld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2011, 01:05 PM   #15
VVV
Member
 
VVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,637
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandaukudi
But that should include that most seadayaks never travelled the sea with their deerantler handled swords and that those with the seacow handled sword never saw their wife and kids on the land.
If I must choose between an angry sea and an angry wife...... Hmmmmm....
Ha, ha, ha, not quite.
Please note that I only found sea cow hilts on the langgai tinggang (= sea dayak war swords), not the ilang (both war and utility swords).
In a way the hypothesis might also explain why you find some very high status parang with wooden hilts.
And as usual with folklore it can be quite local, just a small area. It might even be a requirement from the ship owners according to their beliefs.
But anyway I will try to find time later tonight to check some of my articles and books on Iban customs to see if I find something more about customs at sea.

Michael
VVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2011, 04:08 PM   #16
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Smile

IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY ANYTHING OTHER THAN DUGONG BONES WOULD BE USED AS THEY ARE THE ONLY MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP OF ANIMALS IN THE REGION AND WERE KNOWN AND HUNTED FOR FOOD. STELLER SEA COW BONES WOULD STILL BE AVAILABLE IN SOME NORTHERN LOCATIONS IN OLD TRASH HEAPS NEAR CAMPS OF WHALERS AND ESKIMOS. THE BONE WOULD NOT HAVE FOSSILIZED AND MAY STILL BE USED BY LOCAL TRIBES??
THE STELLER SEA COW BONES MIGHT BE A BIT LARGE FOR MANDAU HANDLES ANYWAY AS ADULTS WERE AROUND 30 FEET LONG. THERE ARE STILL REPORTED SIGHTINGS IN THE REGIONS WHERE THEY USED TO LIVE BUT NO CONFIRMATION OF ANY SURVIVORS SO FAR.
STELLAR SEA COW SKELETON
Attached Images
 
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2011, 07:56 PM   #17
Mytribalworld
Member
 
Mytribalworld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Ha, ha, ha, not quite.
Please note that I only found sea cow hilts on the langgai tinggang (= sea dayak war swords), not the ilang (both war and utility swords).
In a way the hypothesis might also explain why you find some very high status parang with wooden hilts.
And as usual with folklore it can be quite local, just a small area. It might even be a requirement from the ship owners according to their beliefs.
But anyway I will try to find time later tonight to check some of my articles and books on Iban customs to see if I find something more about customs at sea.

Michael
Hi Michael,

I'm curious what you will find, I can image that Malay shippers had such requirements but I wonder if already we have problems with seeing the difference the shipper would and if the dayak would tell him the truth.

If the dayak themself had such requirements, I wonder how they should do that if transport on Borneo is mostly over the river.
should they make the difference between river and sea ? ( note that the villages in many cases of the big headhuntingraids where attacked from the sea and following the river upstreams)

other thing is ..do you have a pic of the whole Langgai with that Kenya like handle ? it would be interesting

Arjan
Mytribalworld is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.