A Question on Collecting

Panzerraptor · 26th April 2016, 04:12 PM

Hello, everybody. I hope this is a proper place to post my question.

So I started collecting swords since last year and already I have a flyssa, a gold-encrusted shamshir, a takouba, and a (possibly) ceremonial kora. I enjoy having these weapons and hope to increase my collection further. Of course, you might notice that the shamshir on the list and, if you've seen the listing in the seller's forum, you're aware that this blade is of much more recent craft than its contemporaries. This leads to my main question: Are modern swords less worthy than antique arms?

Allow me to further pontificate my query. As a collector, or rather, sword enthusiast, I respect and appreciate the history of these items as reflections of the cultures and eras they hail from. Indeed, to have a sword and inspect it personally, and clean it within the confines of your home is a great way to understand how these weapons functioned and the significance they had in their place of origin. That said, as the first (and favorite type of) sword that I managed to obtain was a flyssa, I feel a sense of accomplishment as I have received such a prize that few people can attest to possessing: a rare weapon nearly three hundred years old with intricate designs and a unique build.

However, I understand that some swords or other periodic pieces are hard to come by either due to price or rarity or because, while exquisite in appearance, were made merely decades ago (again, the shamshir). From time to time, you will see items like these but made with relatively high quality and seemingly well-crafted replicas of historical versions (like how most katanas nowadays are - unless they're sold at the mall or HSN, of course - as there are very few examples beyond the usual gunto and fewer that can be obtained at an affordable price).

With this in mind, if one were to come across such replicants, like a ram dao based on an old model, are such items in this hobby seen as merely useless trinkets inexperienced collectors use to fill in space? Does having such an item, lacking any prior history other than "it's based on an existing sword" somehow cheapen the "true" experience and therefore the collection in general?

A.alnakkas · 26th April 2016, 08:04 PM

My biggest issue with new items is when its sold as a genuine old piece and sometimes "antiqued" to look old. That's dishonesty that proper research would most likely keep you safe from.

I collect swords and daggers mainly from the 20th century, with older blades. But I am also currently commissioning a sword that is completely new, from its blade to its dress. But its made completely traditionally as well... to me its part of the same heritage and to me its more valuable since its "my" sword. Thats a different discussion all together.

Collecting means a big investment, not just financially but also in time and mind. You need to study and learn from your mistakes, and to never shy from asking and acknowledging mistakes.

kahnjar1 · 26th April 2016, 08:49 PM

I agree with Lofty in his comments. I was once told by an old collector, now sadly passed, that "If it looks wrong, it probably is". So reference and research of a particular item before you buy, will stand you in good stead, and likely save you in cost.
I relation to "modern made" as opposed to old/antique, you would need to consider how representative of the original your modern copy is. If an original is either almost impossible to own, or the cost of one is too high, then I personally do not see any problem in having a copy/replica in one's collection until an original comes along. That decision is of course up to the individual, and due care would need to be taken that one does not pay the antique price for something which is not antique. .

silberschatzimsee · 26th April 2016, 08:56 PM

I still don't own any weapon

but for me collecting new 'replicas' is not an option. I prefer to stay without anything rather than haveing something contemporary.

Off course should I want to participate in reenactments or similiar festivities I would go for the modern stuff, but then I wouldn't consider them collectibles but tools which can be heavily used without takeing too much cautions about their wear down.

So I am still waiting for the right object to stumble upon but that's part of the game when collecting.

ariel · 26th April 2016, 10:38 PM

There are as many collections as there are collectors.
Each one collects what he (or she) wants and there are no rules or objective criteria to judge the validity of reasons for collecting any particular category of objects.
Come to think of it, there are some strange people who collect beer labels, old coins, watches, Faberge eggs, antique cars, mistresses, and ( horror, horror!) .... stamps! :-))))

Bob A · 27th April 2016, 04:43 AM

As I see it, there is a basic choice to be made, whether to focus on examples which were made, and used, within a period in which their use was the norm, or to support the continuance of a traditional art and craft, so that it might not be lost.

Either, or both, are worthy of effort and expenditure of personal treasure, in my opinion.

The making of objects which are visual and perhaps functional replicas of weapons from days gone by, for the purpose of studying techniques of their use in the period for which they were intended, is also worthwhile.

Making objects, however artfully, with the purpose to deceive, is less worthy a practice. However, I can even see a certain utility in forming a collection of deliberate fakes and forgeries, so long as it is represented as such.

Stuff made as souvenirs for tourists has the value of supporting the maker, and pleasing the tourist. I can't see collecting it, myself, but tastes differ. I knew someone who collected schlocky ashtrays from the places she visited; she derived much pleasure from this.

I don't see that I've added anything of value to this discussion, alas; nor have I closed any doors. With 8,000,000,000 people extant, more or less, there's plenty of room for variety.

As Aleister Crowley, described as "England's worst man", put it, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".

(I think England produces the best eccentrics).

Tim Simmons · 27th April 2016, 07:11 AM

Very good topic. This link covers some of your questions. It is not about swords but the same argument applies. Many fine words about good new art as opposed to bad new art, and who is to say who can make art {no different to swords} These comments all seem to be from collector dealers or dealer collectors????

http://www.newguineaart.com/png-art.php

Something I would add from my own experience: try selling or exchanging a good new piece to a dealer, sadly their opinions I have found are somewhat different to the fine words.

If you have the money to collect fine new pieces as in this other link then fine. If you have not you probably get better pieces and value from old to antique. Not only do you get a nice thing at sometimes sensible prices but also history. I know where my interest is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x5WzIu5iXU

A really good documentery understanding modern sword collecting.

26th April 2016, 04:12 PM	#1
Panzerraptor Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 16	A Question on Collecting Hello, everybody. I hope this is a proper place to post my question. So I started collecting swords since last year and already I have a flyssa, a gold-encrusted shamshir, a takouba, and a (possibly) ceremonial kora. I enjoy having these weapons and hope to increase my collection further. Of course, you might notice that the shamshir on the list and, if you've seen the listing in the seller's forum, you're aware that this blade is of much more recent craft than its contemporaries. This leads to my main question: Are modern swords less worthy than antique arms? Allow me to further pontificate my query. As a collector, or rather, sword enthusiast, I respect and appreciate the history of these items as reflections of the cultures and eras they hail from. Indeed, to have a sword and inspect it personally, and clean it within the confines of your home is a great way to understand how these weapons functioned and the significance they had in their place of origin. That said, as the first (and favorite type of) sword that I managed to obtain was a flyssa, I feel a sense of accomplishment as I have received such a prize that few people can attest to possessing: a rare weapon nearly three hundred years old with intricate designs and a unique build. However, I understand that some swords or other periodic pieces are hard to come by either due to price or rarity or because, while exquisite in appearance, were made merely decades ago (again, the shamshir). From time to time, you will see items like these but made with relatively high quality and seemingly well-crafted replicas of historical versions (like how most katanas nowadays are - unless they're sold at the mall or HSN, of course - as there are very few examples beyond the usual gunto and fewer that can be obtained at an affordable price). With this in mind, if one were to come across such replicants, like a ram dao based on an old model, are such items in this hobby seen as merely useless trinkets inexperienced collectors use to fill in space? Does having such an item, lacking any prior history other than "it's based on an existing sword" somehow cheapen the "true" experience and therefore the collection in general?

26th April 2016, 08:04 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	My biggest issue with new items is when its sold as a genuine old piece and sometimes "antiqued" to look old. That's dishonesty that proper research would most likely keep you safe from. I collect swords and daggers mainly from the 20th century, with older blades. But I am also currently commissioning a sword that is completely new, from its blade to its dress. But its made completely traditionally as well... to me its part of the same heritage and to me its more valuable since its "my" sword. Thats a different discussion all together. Collecting means a big investment, not just financially but also in time and mind. You need to study and learn from your mistakes, and to never shy from asking and acknowledging mistakes.

26th April 2016, 08:49 PM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,730	I agree with Lofty in his comments. I was once told by an old collector, now sadly passed, that "If it looks wrong, it probably is". So reference and research of a particular item before you buy, will stand you in good stead, and likely save you in cost. I relation to "modern made" as opposed to old/antique, you would need to consider how representative of the original your modern copy is. If an original is either almost impossible to own, or the cost of one is too high, then I personally do not see any problem in having a copy/replica in one's collection until an original comes along. That decision is of course up to the individual, and due care would need to be taken that one does not pay the antique price for something which is not antique. .

26th April 2016, 08:56 PM	#4
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	I still don't own any weapon but for me collecting new 'replicas' is not an option. I prefer to stay without anything rather than haveing something contemporary. Off course should I want to participate in reenactments or similiar festivities I would go for the modern stuff, but then I wouldn't consider them collectibles but tools which can be heavily used without takeing too much cautions about their wear down. So I am still waiting for the right object to stumble upon but that's part of the game when collecting.

26th April 2016, 10:38 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There are as many collections as there are collectors. Each one collects what he (or she) wants and there are no rules or objective criteria to judge the validity of reasons for collecting any particular category of objects. Come to think of it, there are some strange people who collect beer labels, old coins, watches, Faberge eggs, antique cars, mistresses, and ( horror, horror!) .... stamps! :-))))

27th April 2016, 04:43 AM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 415	As I see it, there is a basic choice to be made, whether to focus on examples which were made, and used, within a period in which their use was the norm, or to support the continuance of a traditional art and craft, so that it might not be lost. Either, or both, are worthy of effort and expenditure of personal treasure, in my opinion. The making of objects which are visual and perhaps functional replicas of weapons from days gone by, for the purpose of studying techniques of their use in the period for which they were intended, is also worthwhile. Making objects, however artfully, with the purpose to deceive, is less worthy a practice. However, I can even see a certain utility in forming a collection of deliberate fakes and forgeries, so long as it is represented as such. Stuff made as souvenirs for tourists has the value of supporting the maker, and pleasing the tourist. I can't see collecting it, myself, but tastes differ. I knew someone who collected schlocky ashtrays from the places she visited; she derived much pleasure from this. I don't see that I've added anything of value to this discussion, alas; nor have I closed any doors. With 8,000,000,000 people extant, more or less, there's plenty of room for variety. As Aleister Crowley, described as "England's worst man", put it, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". (I think England produces the best eccentrics).

27th April 2016, 07:11 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Very good topic. This link covers some of your questions. It is not about swords but the same argument applies. Many fine words about good new art as opposed to bad new art, and who is to say who can make art {no different to swords} These comments all seem to be from collector dealers or dealer collectors???? http://www.newguineaart.com/png-art.php Something I would add from my own experience: try selling or exchanging a good new piece to a dealer, sadly their opinions I have found are somewhat different to the fine words. If you have the money to collect fine new pieces as in this other link then fine. If you have not you probably get better pieces and value from old to antique. Not only do you get a nice thing at sometimes sensible prices but also history. I know where my interest is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x5WzIu5iXU A really good documentery understanding modern sword collecting.