17thC relic Rapier saved? - Page 2

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 08:27 PM

Hi SuperManuel,

(I certainly won't go corrupting your both lordly and heavenly name!

You are perfectly right - how could I forget Mikhail? So I edited that post right away and added that version. Hope for your greatful forgiveness for this one time ...

Yeah, a thread on dismantling rapiers sounds like a great idea but I am afraid I am not the chosen one to do that. I never dismantle pommels or wire bindings. When they have obviously been together for hundreds of years that would seem a sacrilege to me. Leave untouched objects just the way they have been handed down to us, that's always been my credo.

Best,
Mikhail

Philip · 12th June 2010, 07:10 AM

I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.

The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

fernando · 12th June 2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... Did I understand than Nando became a Dad? Or is this figuratively speaking, on account of the new toy? ...

i meant the real thing, but that was 32 years ago

celtan · 12th June 2010, 12:50 PM

Well. Belated congrats nonetheless..!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

i meant the real thing, but that was 32 years ago

fernando · 12th June 2010, 01:17 PM

This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels?
If not, i confess i am a sinner

. I had this cup hilted sword with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso.
The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina

Fernando

celtan · 12th June 2010, 01:22 PM

Hi Philip,

Never fear, that's not_exactly_ what I had in mind. I agree with everything you said.

OTOH, I have obtained several swords with ruined grip covers and wiring which don't seem to ever have had a preened tang. I suspect the hilt is held together by some type of internal metal hook coupled to expansion of the guard. That's the specific example I should have provided.

I owned a rare Danish Hussard Saber which I had to let go, because I hated the sight of its crumbling leather grip and broken/loose grip wires. I also own a swedish naval saber, lovely in its simplicity and form, but everytime I hold it in my hand, the wire is further damaged. LBNL, I have a huge swedish M1831 saber, which I wanted to use on 18th C Historical reenactments, showing the same problem. I also have a strange english shortsword, found in Westminster's House of Commons after a Luftwaffe attack, which has its fish-skin grip cover crumbling away. All very sad pictures to me, I wish I could fix them.

The following pics have nothing to do with my swords, just the type of grips I was writing about.

Cheers

merelyM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.

The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

celtan · 12th June 2010, 01:28 PM

Albricias, Don Fernando,

I do that routinely to my nazi daggers, and I understand its a common procedure with threaded pommels.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels?
If not, i confess i am a sinner

. I had this hilt with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso.
The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina

Fernando

Atlantia · 12th June 2010, 08:36 PM

Hello Gentlemen, let me answer in turn (and huge thanks to all)

Michael,
Thank you for you kind words and advice.
The silicon is 'silicon carbide paper' (wet and dry) so just to even out the rust really.
the Blade is double edged (definately) although it may have been accentuated by surface loss, the blade is sharp almost all the way up.

Jim,
Thank you, but we all just follow your lead sir

David,
I really don't know to be truthful.

Whatever happens, I need to clean the loose rust off, and conserve it. If I keep it I would do exactly as you say with the handle, but to be honest, I usually find that I can't keep relics for long, I find the condition 'issues' niggle away at me.
As for baby Alex, he is still keeping us awake at nights, but he's doing well and is an absolute joy. Thank you for asking

Manuel

David meant me, I became a dad 6 months ago for the first time.

Philip,
Never fear, I don't see any need to remove the pommel from this sword.

Nando,
A father 32 years ago? Is he sleeping through the night yet?

-After 6 months the sleep depravation seems endless.

fernando · 13th June 2010, 02:18 PM

Hi Gene

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... A father 32 years ago? Is he sleeping through the night yet?

-After 6 months the sleep depravation seems endless.

It is a she; a pets Vet.
Sleeping through? always

. I can count with my (five) fingers the nights Katia made us loose.
She was (is) a gift of the Gods

.
'Nando

Atlantia · 13th June 2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene

It is a she; a pets Vet.
Sleeping through? always

. I can count with my (five) fingers the nights Katia made us loose.
She was (is) a gift of the Gods

.
'Nando

LOL, she certainly was a little angel then!
Alex is a total blessing, just hard on my sleep.

Philip · 14th June 2010, 06:39 AM

Of course, my prior comments on pommel removal were penned with peened-over tangs in mind. If the hilt is held by threaded nuts, then there's no problem with taking off and replacing the components, providing the nuts can be unscrewed without encountering the vexing problem of threads frozen by deep-seated corrosion. You will probably have to improvise your own wrench or spanner if the nut isn't of a size or shape that can be gripped with commonly-available tools. Some pommel nuts are recessed, and are turned via split slots, visible on either side of the threaded bolt which is the end of the tang. A large, wide screwdriver thick enough to fit the slots will do the trick, once the center portion is filed out to clear the tang. Similar split nuts are sometimes encountered on the wooden slab grips of bayonets, cutlasses, and fascine knives (the French were fond of this type of attachment) so you may need to modify a variety of screwdriver sizes to fit these. I like the old-fashioned English-style joiners' or cabinetmakers' screwdrivers, their blades are beefy and well-tempered, and the bulbous wood handles are very ergonomic. Besides, the flattened area at the base of the shank is ideal for attaching a wrench to, so you can generate some awesome torque to back out a stubborn nut or screw.

Hotspur · 16th June 2010, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Hotspur,

Olive oil is the so-called tree oil (German Baumöl) that is mentioned in 17th century armory books as the optimal means of cleaning, together with Schmirgel (sand), and preserving iron surfaces, be it armor or arms. Olive oil is the yellowish patina on untouched surfaces of antique arms; if you clean it off you will get a perfectly preserved milky white iron surface with no rust.

I have been using it in my almost 40 years of conservation practice and will stick to it as it is the historic recipe and has proved to work just fine. During the cleaning process you will get no scratches on the iron surface, nor an unnatural shine afterwards.

Best,
Michael

Thanks, for the followup and explanation. I certainly didn't mean this to be a hit and run, nor derail a topic entirely with my own experiences. While I don't deny old recipes and tradition may have a place in use of maintenance, the materials have been updated with little difference in results. The amount of shine is certainly adjustable with any abrasives and sand or soil is just that. Oil is generally just as variable but my wonder about the viscosity and real worth of maintaining olive oil as a grail makes me sceptical that it is just tradition and a very subjective method of continuing it in modern conservation.

I recently received an item that was cleaned and conserved simply with soft cloths and paste wax. While it was minimally invasive of its then current state, what that left after a decade or so was simply cloaking dirt and even rust which continued to progress. My point, I guess is that the heavier viscosity of olive oil and any remaining "wax" is simply adding to patina instead of simple cleaning and more serious conservation.

Thanks for the reply

GC

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 05:08 PM

Did you finish your conservation?
Perhaps we can see the results?

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 06:20 PM

Also, I've searched 'tannin' and couldn't find any pharmacy products. Would anyone care to elaborate on it?

fernando · 10th August 2010, 06:37 PM

Search for "Tannic acid".
Contained in red whine, coffe, tea, spinach, etc
The formula is C76H52O46.
The other day, a museum restorer also adviced this stuff.
It is found, over here, in traditional drug stores.
Certainly acquirable in the Internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannic_acid

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 06:43 PM

Thank you. I know what a tannic acid is. I was hoping it was available as a commercial product.The easiest way for me to obtain it is probably to brew some strong tea. Perhaps that's what I should do, and try it on an iron nail.

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 06:49 PM

Found this -
http://www.homebrewit.com/aisle/p/6300B

fernando · 10th August 2010, 06:52 PM

Good that you found it.
I was already thinking of how to get some, over here, and send it to you.

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Good that you found it.
I was already thinking of how to get some, over here, and send it to you.

Thanks! I'm thinking some strong-brewed tea would have the same effect. Will try it tonight on a musket barrel bracket that I f..ed up by over-cleaning it badly.
Will take some photos 'before and after'.

Atlantia · 10th August 2010, 10:33 PM

Dmitry/Gentlemen.
Its just been sat with WD40 on it to protect it while I decide what to do next.

Dmitry · 18th August 2010, 03:57 AM

For what it's worth, I wouldn't call this sword a Pappenheimer. The hilt is quite English in style and construction, at least to these green eyes.

12th June 2010, 07:10 AM	#32
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Oy, cholileh! I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it. The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

12th June 2010, 01:17 PM	#35
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	pommel removal This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels? If not, i confess i am a sinner . I had this cup hilted sword with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso. The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina Fernando Last edited by fernando; 12th June 2010 at 01:54 PM. Reason: correction

14th June 2010, 06:39 AM	#41
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Threaded pommel nuts Of course, my prior comments on pommel removal were penned with peened-over tangs in mind. If the hilt is held by threaded nuts, then there's no problem with taking off and replacing the components, providing the nuts can be unscrewed without encountering the vexing problem of threads frozen by deep-seated corrosion. You will probably have to improvise your own wrench or spanner if the nut isn't of a size or shape that can be gripped with commonly-available tools. Some pommel nuts are recessed, and are turned via split slots, visible on either side of the threaded bolt which is the end of the tang. A large, wide screwdriver thick enough to fit the slots will do the trick, once the center portion is filed out to clear the tang. Similar split nuts are sometimes encountered on the wooden slab grips of bayonets, cutlasses, and fascine knives (the French were fond of this type of attachment) so you may need to modify a variety of screwdriver sizes to fit these. I like the old-fashioned English-style joiners' or cabinetmakers' screwdrivers, their blades are beefy and well-tempered, and the bulbous wood handles are very ergonomic. Besides, the flattened area at the base of the shank is ideal for attaching a wrench to, so you can generate some awesome torque to back out a stubborn nut or screw.

11th June 2010, 08:27 PM	#31
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi SuperManuel, (I certainly won't go corrupting your both lordly and heavenly name! You are perfectly right - how could I forget Mikhail? So I edited that post right away and added that version. Hope for your greatful forgiveness for this one time ... Yeah, a thread on dismantling rapiers sounds like a great idea but I am afraid I am not the chosen one to do that. I never dismantle pommels or wire bindings. When they have obviously been together for hundreds of years that would seem a sacrilege to me. Leave untouched objects just the way they have been handed down to us, that's always been my credo. Best, Mikhail

12th June 2010, 08:36 PM	#38
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hello Gentlemen, let me answer in turn (and huge thanks to all) Michael, Thank you for you kind words and advice. The silicon is 'silicon carbide paper' (wet and dry) so just to even out the rust really. the Blade is double edged (definately) although it may have been accentuated by surface loss, the blade is sharp almost all the way up. Jim, Thank you, but we all just follow your lead sir David, I really don't know to be truthful. Whatever happens, I need to clean the loose rust off, and conserve it. If I keep it I would do exactly as you say with the handle, but to be honest, I usually find that I can't keep relics for long, I find the condition 'issues' niggle away at me. As for baby Alex, he is still keeping us awake at nights, but he's doing well and is an absolute joy. Thank you for asking Manuel David meant me, I became a dad 6 months ago for the first time. Philip, Never fear, I don't see any need to remove the pommel from this sword. Nando, A father 32 years ago? Is he sleeping through the night yet? -After 6 months the sleep depravation seems endless.

10th August 2010, 05:08 PM	#43
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Did you finish your conservation? Perhaps we can see the results?

10th August 2010, 06:20 PM	#44
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Also, I've searched 'tannin' and couldn't find any pharmacy products. Would anyone care to elaborate on it?

10th August 2010, 06:37 PM	#45
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Search for "Tannic acid". Contained in red whine, coffe, tea, spinach, etc The formula is C76H52O46. The other day, a museum restorer also adviced this stuff. It is found, over here, in traditional drug stores. Certainly acquirable in the Internet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannic_acid

10th August 2010, 06:43 PM	#46
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Thank you. I know what a tannic acid is. I was hoping it was available as a commercial product.The easiest way for me to obtain it is probably to brew some strong tea. Perhaps that's what I should do, and try it on an iron nail.

10th August 2010, 06:49 PM	#47
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Found this - http://www.homebrewit.com/aisle/p/6300B

10th August 2010, 06:52 PM	#48
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Good that you found it. I was already thinking of how to get some, over here, and send it to you.

10th August 2010, 10:33 PM	#50
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Dmitry/Gentlemen. Its just been sat with WD40 on it to protect it while I decide what to do next.

18th August 2010, 03:57 AM	#51
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	For what it's worth, I wouldn't call this sword a Pappenheimer. The hilt is quite English in style and construction, at least to these green eyes.