Dating and locating blades from Luzon

tim_stl · 7th June 2012, 07:36 PM

I've been lurking and reading a lot, trying to get a feel for how to determine date of origin (and probable location of manufacture) of Filipino blades. I decided to post a quick cell phone pic of some of the blades in the collection I'm starting (all from Luzon), in the hopes that those of you who know more about these types of blades could educate me a bit.

The picture is attached. I can get more detailed pictures of individual pieces later if anyone is interested, but I was curious - what are the first things that you look for when determining the age and origin of a piece? What are the general 'eras' of dating Filipino blades? It seems that the most general categories are pre- and post-WWII, Katipunan/Span-Am War era, and before.

Thanks,

Tim

Robert · 7th June 2012, 11:35 PM

OK, I'll give a shot at dating these pieces but without better pictures it is going to be hard to be very exact on the dates. Starting at the bottom and going up from there, #1 probably in the last few years, #2 Post WWII, #3 Definitely need better pictures, #4 first quarter of the twentieth century, #5 WWII or shortly after, #6 Second quarter of the twentieth century #6 & #7 First quarter of the twentieth century. Please post these one at a time with better pictures and I'm sure you will get a lot better dating on these from the experts.

Robert

VANDOO · 8th June 2012, 05:18 AM

THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS THAT INDICATE AGE.
1. MATERIALS/FITTINGS. ALUMINUM INDICATES LIKELY JUST BEFORE TO AFTER WW2, (THE BLADE CAN BE OLDER AND REMOUNTED)
2. THICKNESS OF THE BLADE AND SIGNS OF FORGEING ( WATERED STEEL) CAN INDICATE AN OLDER BLADE. MORE RECENT ONES ARE OFTEN MONO-STEEL AND NOT SO THICK. TRUCK AND JEEP SPRINGS WERE VERY POPULAR FOR RAW MATERIAL AROUND WW2
3. PATINA , STEEL IS EASIER TO FAKE AGE PATINA THAN WOOD OR LEATHER.
4. GOOD NATURAL WEAR FROM LONG USE,(NOT ESPECIALLY GOOD FOR DETERMINING AGE BUT A GOOD INDICATION OF AUTHENTIC LOCAL USE.)
5. IN SOME CASES SIZE CAN BE AN INDICATOR OF AGE. SOMETIMES SMALLER IS OLDER AND SOMETIMES THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

ITS COMPLICATED AND ESPECIALLY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE AGE WITHOUT GOOD PROVENANCE AND ONLY PICTURES TO GO ON.

I THINK THE TOP ONE LOOKS TO BE A OLDER PRE WW2 ONE BUT AM JUST GUESSING.

tim_stl · 8th June 2012, 08:03 AM

Thank you, Vandoo, for the information. I understand that this isn't an exact science, but it helps to know what the basic criteria people are looking at when they give their opinion. Unfortunately I don't know the provenance of any of these pieces. Robert, here are some more detailed pics of the individual pieces. I didn't have good lighting, so I had to try to find a middle ground between glare and shadow. First the top three, and details on the first.
(all iron fittings, almost 1/4" thick spine at the hilt)

tim_stl · 8th June 2012, 08:12 AM

Details on the second. (brass? ferule, iron butt plate, 1/4" thick blade at hilt)

tim_stl · 8th June 2012, 08:15 AM

And details on the third one. I'll start new threads for the rest, so this one doesn't get cluttered up. (all iron fittings, over 1/4" thick blade at the hilt)

Battara · 10th June 2012, 10:02 PM

One thing I look for is the tang. If the tang goes through the end and is peened, then it is from Luzon.

Quality is also a general guide. Poor quality with simple carvings usually indicate to me post 1920s. Silver content also disappears as one progresses from the turn of the 20th century, though not all pieces have silver on them.

Then if it has a triangle or sun on it, it is Philippine Revolution with was from 1898-1903.

Just a few ideas to answer your question.

7th June 2012, 07:36 PM	#1
tim_stl Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 8	Dating and locating blades from Luzon I've been lurking and reading a lot, trying to get a feel for how to determine date of origin (and probable location of manufacture) of Filipino blades. I decided to post a quick cell phone pic of some of the blades in the collection I'm starting (all from Luzon), in the hopes that those of you who know more about these types of blades could educate me a bit. The picture is attached. I can get more detailed pictures of individual pieces later if anyone is interested, but I was curious - what are the first things that you look for when determining the age and origin of a piece? What are the general 'eras' of dating Filipino blades? It seems that the most general categories are pre- and post-WWII, Katipunan/Span-Am War era, and before. Thanks, Tim Attached Images

7th June 2012, 11:35 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	OK, I'll give a shot at dating these pieces but without better pictures it is going to be hard to be very exact on the dates. Starting at the bottom and going up from there, #1 probably in the last few years, #2 Post WWII, #3 Definitely need better pictures, #4 first quarter of the twentieth century, #5 WWII or shortly after, #6 Second quarter of the twentieth century #6 & #7 First quarter of the twentieth century. Please post these one at a time with better pictures and I'm sure you will get a lot better dating on these from the experts. Robert

8th June 2012, 05:18 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS THAT INDICATE AGE. 1. MATERIALS/FITTINGS. ALUMINUM INDICATES LIKELY JUST BEFORE TO AFTER WW2, (THE BLADE CAN BE OLDER AND REMOUNTED) 2. THICKNESS OF THE BLADE AND SIGNS OF FORGEING ( WATERED STEEL) CAN INDICATE AN OLDER BLADE. MORE RECENT ONES ARE OFTEN MONO-STEEL AND NOT SO THICK. TRUCK AND JEEP SPRINGS WERE VERY POPULAR FOR RAW MATERIAL AROUND WW2 3. PATINA , STEEL IS EASIER TO FAKE AGE PATINA THAN WOOD OR LEATHER. 4. GOOD NATURAL WEAR FROM LONG USE,(NOT ESPECIALLY GOOD FOR DETERMINING AGE BUT A GOOD INDICATION OF AUTHENTIC LOCAL USE.) 5. IN SOME CASES SIZE CAN BE AN INDICATOR OF AGE. SOMETIMES SMALLER IS OLDER AND SOMETIMES THE OTHER WAY AROUND. ITS COMPLICATED AND ESPECIALLY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE AGE WITHOUT GOOD PROVENANCE AND ONLY PICTURES TO GO ON. I THINK THE TOP ONE LOOKS TO BE A OLDER PRE WW2 ONE BUT AM JUST GUESSING.

8th June 2012, 08:03 AM	#4
tim_stl Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 8	Thank you, Vandoo, for the information. I understand that this isn't an exact science, but it helps to know what the basic criteria people are looking at when they give their opinion. Unfortunately I don't know the provenance of any of these pieces. Robert, here are some more detailed pics of the individual pieces. I didn't have good lighting, so I had to try to find a middle ground between glare and shadow. First the top three, and details on the first. (all iron fittings, almost 1/4" thick spine at the hilt) Attached Images

8th June 2012, 08:12 AM	#5
tim_stl Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 8	Details on the second. (brass? ferule, iron butt plate, 1/4" thick blade at hilt) Attached Images

8th June 2012, 08:15 AM	#6
tim_stl Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 8	And details on the third one. I'll start new threads for the rest, so this one doesn't get cluttered up. (all iron fittings, over 1/4" thick blade at the hilt) Attached Images

10th June 2012, 10:02 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	One thing I look for is the tang. If the tang goes through the end and is peened, then it is from Luzon. Quality is also a general guide. Poor quality with simple carvings usually indicate to me post 1920s. Silver content also disappears as one progresses from the turn of the 20th century, though not all pieces have silver on them. Then if it has a triangle or sun on it, it is Philippine Revolution with was from 1898-1903. Just a few ideas to answer your question.