Afghan Pulowar blade type? - Page 2

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

YES A SERIES OF PICTURES IS AT http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/india...ls-in-the-hilt

Very interesting! Many thanks!

In this case I suppose the only possible explanation for the presence of the "tears" is the sound they make when the dagger is moved.

And that's, in my oppinion, the main reason they are present in some blades as well.

Just remember that in the old times, warriors used to wave their weapons above their heads not only in battles, but also when they were celebrating something or when they were dancing. Then, a rolling balls sound would certainly have made a difference!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very interesting! Many thanks!

In this case I suppose the only possible explanation for the presence of the "tears" is the sound they make when the dagger is moved.

And that's, in my oppinion, the main reason they are present in some blades as well.

Just remember that in the old times, warriors used to wave their weapons above their heads not only in battles, but also when they were celebrating something or when they were dancing. Then, a rolling balls sound would certainly have made a difference!

I suspect that the main reason for this development was based on superstition / tradition and that it was rather more a parade decorative device than anything else...

estcrh · 21st July 2016, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

See anything that looks remotely new here?

ariel · 21st July 2016, 07:16 PM

It IS old :-)))))))

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

See anything that looks remotely new here?

I guess you are right. The scabbard looks old, but I assume leather can be easily aged. Just bake it a little.

The steel of the hilt also appears to be artificially aged with spots of very recent and active red rust.

I also stand by my conclusion that the blade is a dud. And I explained why.

Try chiseling a straight groove and a curved one and will see what I mean. You basically have to struggle a lot with the chisel if you purportedly want curved grooves like those on the blade. Straight grooves come out naturally.

Moreover, in order to mill the grooves the way they are, the steel of the blade has to be very soft to the point of being iron and that's why I think this blade couldn't stand a single blow without bending.

I would like to hear the opinion of a skilled bladesmith in this matter.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I suspect that the main reason for this development was based on superstition / tradition and that it was rather more a parade decorative device than anything else...

Of course they were not intended for fighting weapons. Think only how difficult would have been their maintenance once the blade gets soaked in blood.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

It IS old :-)))))))

How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!

estcrh · 21st July 2016, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

It IS old :-)))))))

Yes, old, nothing new about it at all.

estcrh · 21st July 2016, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!

Much older, your letting your original suspicion (not a bad thing) keep you from seeing that there is no aspect of this sword and scabbard which shows anything other than extreme age, 19th century at least...in my opinion. The rust is localised to specific areas, not unusual at all. The rivets are worn, no sign of being removed, the resin is obviously old, the brass / gold inserts all along the spine are worn, not intact and new.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 07:58 PM

Thank you for the photos!

Certainly milled with a ball-tipped end-mill! And this type of tool didn't exist in 19th century for sure! 20 century again for sure!

Those grooves couldn't have been made with a chisel. They start with an ample curvature an with a lesser depth because that's when the linear movement of the mill starts and there is most resistance after the initial starting hole, so there is less control over the tool.

Do yo have this blade? Is it elastic like steel should be, or bends easily?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 08:07 PM

Unlike other regions India was slow into the business of faking age on weapons. Like all weapons it is far better to have the thing in your hands in assessing real or not. I have to say, however, that looking at the wear, rust and patina in these pictures that this looks like mid 19th century or earlier... It is naturally worn... I see no sharp edges and the overall smooth, even wear seems to me quite original. I can imagine that when it was newer the pearl or steel ball inserts would travel up and down the slots but that fair wear and tear has rendered the grooves unusable ... The Chinese were making this style in the 17thn C and it is suggested that it was something they copied from India and Persia. Certainly there are plenty of examples from those regions. Great discussion ...Thanks.

Please see http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html

I place a Mughal dagger from a finished auction below...Quote" A Mughal kard with the 'Tears of the Wounded'
18th century
The 11 1/2 inch single edged wootz blade of substantial weight and showing a fine ladder pattern; offset slots inlet on either side inserted with fresh water pearls, the Tears of the Wounded. Fluted spine chiseled with a scroll work panel at the base. Integral bolster inlaid in gold, the peony meander pattern reserved in steel. One-piece water buffalo horn grip with flat silver-plated pommel cap set with a grooved red coral cabochon in the Ottoman style.
Condition: Blade showing a strong watered pattern with series of scratches. Grip probably replaced during period of use". Unquote.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 08:16 PM

As Ibrahiim points out, all edges of the grooves appear rounded like after long wear... yet you have the inlays in pretty good condition...

Well... not really... so don't mind this last comment. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

As Ibrahiim points out, all edges of the grooves appear rounded like after long wear... yet you have the inlays in pretty good condition...

Well... not really... so don't mind this last comment. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

I don't see any problem disagreeing here ...so I do... The inlays are pretty ropy typically, after time ...and I see no dodgy aspect on this weapon at all... Its not easy spotting fakes as many museums have found out... but in my view this is a genuine article not played with and dating to at least the mid 19th C... probably earlier....and actually supported in its earlier potential provenance by the inlay which shows a lot of life...

ariel · 21st July 2016, 08:33 PM

Marius,

Many old Afghan blades have grooves exactly like that.
I am at work now, but will check my collection.

Grooves like that were cut with very hard chisels all over the world. The round mark at the beginning of the groove is just a convenient starting point. I agree that the steadiness of hand was not exemplary, but we are not talking Assadullah here, this is a creation of a simple Afghani blacksmith making simple Afghani swords for simple Afghani slashing. Not exquisite, but perfectly sufficient for butchering a feringhi:-)) Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that Eric is absolutely correct: it is a genuinely old blade, 19 century at the latest.

Of course, leather might be newer: scabbards did not survive very long in the field, Russian army regulations specified exchange of scabbards every 3 years. Professional fakers from India and Georgia routinely present artificially-aged leather scabbards: they do not look 1% as convincing as this one. While it is possible to fake the mastique, I certainly would like to know how to do it: it looks awfully old.

My bottom line: 100% genuine, 100% old.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 08:50 PM

Your arguments appear to hold well, and I trust you guys are more experienced than me (it would be hard not to).

However, you have seen my arguments and explanations from the mechanical point of view. And unless I have another good explanation on how those grooves were made, I will still be convinced it is a recent fake.

The argument there are many blades with grooves like this is not very valid as
1. maybe there aren't that many
2. maybe all that are, are fakes.

Indians started faking weapons since 19th century.

Anyhow it would be quite boring if we all agree... right?!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 09:01 PM

I have a few pictures to compare with the #1 sword...The two swords at the top can be seen sold on https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item...-afghan-swords

In respect of the lower pictures against a black backdrop ~The webpage says at http://honoomasamune.tumblr.com/

Quote" Pulouar Sword

Dated: circa 1676 - 1725
Culture: Indian/Afghan
Medium: steel, gold
Measurements: overall length 97 cm; blade length 83 cm

The Pulouar is an Afghan sword, also used in India, a variant of the Tulwar. It always displays a short guard, curved in the direction of the blade, and a hemispheric pommel without a counter guard. This piece displays a blade in watered steel, curved and with a slight wave in its double edge.

Near the hilt a golden cartouche is desplayed with the following inscription: “Akbar Sha al-Sultan Mirza”. The hilt, also in steel, displays a spherical pommel completely covered in an engraved web motif and geometrical patterns. The hand guard features a delicate swan head on the pommel, also engraved, an inscription with the “Ali”, followed by the sentence “nasr min Allah wa il-fath qrabi.”Unquote.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I have a few pictures to compare with the #1 sword...the webpage says at http://honoomasamune.tumblr.com/

Quote" Pulouar Sword

Dated: circa 1676 - 1725
Culture: Indian/Afghan
Medium: steel, gold
Measurements: overall length 97 cm; blade length 83 cm

The Pulouar is an Afghan sword, also used in India, a variant of the Tulwar. It always displays a short guard, curved in the direction of the blade, and a hemispheric pommel without a counter guard. This piece displays a blade in watered steel, curved and with a slight wave in its double edge.

Near the hilt a golden cartouche is desplayed with the following inscription: “Akbar Sha al-Sultan Mirza”. The hilt, also in steel, displays a spherical pommel completely covered in an engraved web motif and geometrical patterns. The hand guard features a delicate swan head on the pommel, also engraved, an inscription with the “Ali”, followed by the sentence “nasr min Allah wa il-fath qrabi.”Unquote.

Thank you very much... again for the photos!
Mine is definitely much younger. Maybe 19th century...

Bob A · 21st July 2016, 11:48 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi, thank you for the link to the Caravana collection. I have yet to explore it in any depth, but even a cursory scan is enough to appreciate its value. Breathtaking stuff, the existence of which amazes and confounds.

Much appreciated.

ariel · 22nd July 2016, 01:08 AM

Here is one of my pulouars.
The other one is wootz, but the blade is flat, with no grooves.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 02:54 AM

Outstanding comments and discussion!
On the 'tears of the wounded' and other descriptions of these blade channels holding bearings, it seems generally held that these were typically 'court or parade' weapons. I have seen references suggesting that these channels would likely compromise the blade in combat situations, though I am sure that might be contested.
The term 'pearls' is figurative as these are typically metal bearings.

It is great to see these examples of 'paluoar' in their original rugged condition, which to me truly holds the intrinsic frontier character of the regions from which they come.

While it is tempting to consider the often crude nature of some of the components and blades of many of these swords as 'fakery', it must be remembered that frontier armourers often used whatever items and skills however limited, to create arms for tribal use.

While it seems these were indeed originating from some time in the 18th century, the scabbard with the asymmetrical carry rings (one on scabbard front) is similar to the latter 19th century Anglo-Afghan military swords.
The parabolic Persian type shamshir blade on the example Ariel shows reflects the profound preference toward many Persian arms in these regions.

ariel · 22nd July 2016, 05:55 AM

I remember a treatise on the origins of the Afghani " regulation khyber", where this and similar examples were presented as the very last step in the purported "evolution" and attributed to the very last years of the 19th century, the ultimate achievement of the Mashin Khana that was established in 1887. Ironically, the very same communication showed a photograph of a gentleman named Mohammed Yakub Khan dated 1879 carrying a similar sword. Thus, the supposedly final evolutionary step was in fact the earliest one

Darwin would have had a fit:-)))

estcrh · 22nd July 2016, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Here is one of my pulouars.
The other one is wootz, but the blade is flat, with no grooves.

Ariel, this is very close to the one I posted, the same type of radical curve and the cut grooves, thanks to posting it.

mariusgmioc · 22nd July 2016, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ariel, this is very close to the one I posted, the same type of radical curve and the cut grooves, thanks to posting it.

Undoubtedly chiseled by hand.

They are straight (more or less) albeit irregular and crudely made. They definitely don't have the curves with very short curvature radius and the drilled holes at the beginning of the groove. Nor they display the obvious variation in depth.

Completely different stuff than the grooves in question. The grooves are not remotely close.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I remember a treatise on the origins of the Afghani " regulation khyber", where this and similar examples were presented as the very last step in the purported "evolution" and attributed to the very last years of the 19th century, the ultimate achievement of the Mashin Khana that was established in 1887. Ironically, the very same communication showed a photograph of a gentleman named Mohammed Yakub Khan dated 1879 carrying a similar sword. Thus, the supposedly final evolutionary step was in fact the earliest one

Darwin would have had a fit:-)))

Obviously I know the treatise. Actually I have one of these Anglo-Afghan military swords, which has the familiar Mazir I Sharif (Mashin Khana) stamp and is dated 1893. It seems the date range of examples of these are in 1890s, and these were used even later.

I recall finding the image of Mohammed Yakub Khan in the book "Northwest Frontier" by Swinson many years ago, and indeed he is wearing a sword with remarkably similar hilt.

The paper sought to discover, much as I had, to find the origin of these distinctly European military styled hilts, and that date seemed to place the earliest, though the Mashin Khana examples seem not to occur until later than the 1879 date. So where did that hilt which is in the 1879 photo come from? and why did it not appear in production until advent of that Kabul armoury?

It seems that tribal 'Khybers' (salwars) occurred in the interim between 1879 and the noted inception of the Mashin Khana factory with these hilts, but likely quite near it as many of them have the stamp known used by it. At this time, the heavy channeled military type blades began being placed on these. It is believed these 'military' hilted Khybers were probably for some of the tribal levy's in British service in these times.

An interesting aside to looking more into the equally and often misperceived paluoars . I guess we here are sort of Darwinian sword whisperers

estcrh · 22nd July 2016, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Undoubtedly chiseled by hand.

They are straight (more or less) albeit irregular and crudely made. They definitely don't have the curves with very short curvature radius and the drilled holes at the beginning of the groove. Nor they display the obvious variation in depth.

Completely different stuff than the grooves in question. The grooves are not remotely close.

Different sword smiths using different designs and techniques, both similar, you just do not see may pulwars that look like these ones, I am sure there are more out there.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd July 2016, 01:18 PM

To magnify and examine The Ethnographic I saw some early photos; Illustrating Afghan swords...The sketch shows some Baluch and Afghan irregulars... armed.... with everything!

Below this the largest/longest photo stars Yakub Khan at the centre with the description below. (The smaller photo of one of his officers is included separately to view better the sword.) For interest The small black and white picture shows the camp at Safed Sang.

Quote from....https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...s_officers.jpg

Group. The Amir Yakub Khan & sirdars of Kabul [At Safed Sang].

Photograph featuring Yakub Khan, the Amir of Afghanistan, seated in the centre, and his officers, taken in May 1879 by John Burke at Safed Sang in Afghanistan. The six foot tall Daoud Shah, from the Ghilzai tribe, his commander-in-chief, sits at the Amir's right. To the Amir's left is Habibullah Khan, the moustafi or prime minister. Burke accompanied British forces into Afghanistan in 1878 and covered the events of the Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-80), becoming the first significant photographer of the country and its people in the process. The British, having defeated the Amir Sher Ali's forces, wintered in Jalalabad, waiting for the new Amir Yakub Khan to accept their terms and conditions. One of the key figures in the negotiations was the military administrator Pierre Louis Napoleon Cavagnari (1841-1879), a half-Irish, half-Italian aristocrat who was appointed as emissary by the Viceroy Lord Lytton.

In May 1879, Yakub Khan travelled to Gandamak, a village just outside Jalalabad and entered into negotiations with Cavagnari as a result of which the Treaty of Gandamak was signed whereby the Amir ceded territories to the British and accepted a British envoy in Kabul. Cavagnari took up the post of British Resident in Kabul in July 1879. He was known to be reckless and arrogant rather than discreet and his role as envoy was viewed as injudicious even by some of the British.

The situation in Kabul was tense and eventually some Afghan troops who had not been paid by the Amir rebelled and attacked the Residency, killing Cavagnari and his mission in September 1879. The war was far from over despite the treaty and British troops were recalled over the mountains to occupy Kabul, secure it and launch punitive action against the Afghans.

Yakub Khan abdicated, taking refuge in the British camp and was subsequently sent to India in December."Unquote.

mahratt · 23rd July 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I remember a treatise on the origins of the Afghani " regulation khyber", where this and similar examples were presented as the very last step in the purported "evolution" and attributed to the very last years of the 19th century, the ultimate achievement of the Mashin Khana that was established in 1887. Ironically, the very same communication showed a photograph of a gentleman named Mohammed Yakub Khan dated 1879 carrying a similar sword. Thus, the supposedly final evolutionary step was in fact the earliest one

Darwin would have had a fit:-)))

I advise you to read the article again. Sword Yakub Khan - it's not "regulation Khyber knife".

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2016, 03:41 AM

My apologies, my notes on the photo I referred to were incorrect.
What I meant was the photo by John Burke at the signing if the Treaty of Gandamak, 26 May, 1879.
King Mohammed Yaqub Khan seated at center, on his left is Daoud Shah, his commander in chief......and my notation was to the distinct style of his hilt with the open parallel bar knuckleguard, recurved terminal at top.

It is thought that this hilt was possibly a prototype for the military style hilts which were to be produced at the Mashin Khana at Kabul in the early 1890s.
As seen in other photos, this style hilt is also to be found on the traditional Khyber blades, often with the 'Mazir I Sharif' stamp of Mashin Khana.
The heavily channeled European style blade (also pictured) became the more regularly produced model into turn of the century. Later many of the hilts were in brass, but with this distinctive 'bayonet style' hilt.

It seems that these Khyber bladed examples with military style hilts as pictured, may have been for some of the tribal levy's using traditional blades but with these Anglo-Afghan hilts.

The styling of the slotted knuckle guard seems to correspond to some styling on a number of paluoars as well as tulwars from these regions in the Northwest Frontier into Afghanistan.

The theme of the paper discussed the integration of the traditional blades and military style hilts as well as seeking the origins of the design, with the example of similar style in the sword of Daoud Shah in 1879 representing earliest known placement of its form. As I understood the title noting 'regulation Khyber' referred to the development of these military Afghan swords as well as their use with traditional Khyber blades in the tribal contingents .

ariel · 24th July 2016, 02:35 PM

This is true Jim: Afghanis were trying to mass produce their traditional Khybers at the Mashin Khana and to give them some European look( D guard). The upper one you have shown is an example. At the same time the mass-produced ones started using cheap materiel, - wood, - for the handles and got rid of any artistic elements present at the older handmade one. In a way, it was similar to what happened with Caucasian shashkas: the Russians appropriated it as their regulation weapon and modified it to the point of converting a beautiful native weapon into pretty ugly European-looking saber without the handguard ( the only homage to the original Caucasian inspiration in addition to the imitation of an eared pommel).

But the last one you have shown that was also carried by Yakub Khan has nothing to do with the Khyber: both the handle and the blade are European, and the blades on different examples were of a variety of patterns, none of which had anything to do with the original Khybers. The Yakub Khan's one was in existence well before the establishment of Mashin Khan. Those were just colonial models.

There was no evolution of Khybers : just a short-lived and unsuccessful attempt at mass production. And the purported "final step" of the presumed evolutionary process had nothing to do with the original model. As they say: true, true and unrelated.

mahratt · 24th July 2016, 08:29 PM

This is called - look but do not see.

I have to repeat again, Yakub Khan sword is different from the regulation Khyber knife. And I wrote about it in the article:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...regular+khyber

"Evolution" regulation Khyber knife is not only to acquire the shackle guard.

But numismatists - can not understand ...

21st July 2016, 07:58 PM	#40
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,870	Thank you for the photos! Certainly milled with a ball-tipped end-mill! And this type of tool didn't exist in 19th century for sure! 20 century again for sure! Those grooves couldn't have been made with a chisel. They start with an ample curvature an with a lesser depth because that's when the linear movement of the mill starts and there is most resistance after the initial starting hole, so there is less control over the tool. Do yo have this blade? Is it elastic like steel should be, or bends easily? Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st July 2016 at 08:11 PM.

21st July 2016, 08:07 PM	#41
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Unlike other regions India was slow into the business of faking age on weapons. Like all weapons it is far better to have the thing in your hands in assessing real or not. I have to say, however, that looking at the wear, rust and patina in these pictures that this looks like mid 19th century or earlier... It is naturally worn... I see no sharp edges and the overall smooth, even wear seems to me quite original. I can imagine that when it was newer the pearl or steel ball inserts would travel up and down the slots but that fair wear and tear has rendered the grooves unusable ... The Chinese were making this style in the 17thn C and it is suggested that it was something they copied from India and Persia. Certainly there are plenty of examples from those regions. Great discussion ...Thanks. Please see http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html I place a Mughal dagger from a finished auction below...Quote" A Mughal kard with the 'Tears of the Wounded' 18th century The 11 1/2 inch single edged wootz blade of substantial weight and showing a fine ladder pattern; offset slots inlet on either side inserted with fresh water pearls, the Tears of the Wounded. Fluted spine chiseled with a scroll work panel at the base. Integral bolster inlaid in gold, the peony meander pattern reserved in steel. One-piece water buffalo horn grip with flat silver-plated pommel cap set with a grooved red coral cabochon in the Ottoman style. Condition: Blade showing a strong watered pattern with series of scratches. Grip probably replaced during period of use". Unquote. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st July 2016 at 08:26 PM.

21st July 2016, 09:01 PM	#46
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I have a few pictures to compare with the #1 sword...The two swords at the top can be seen sold on https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item...-afghan-swords In respect of the lower pictures against a black backdrop ~The webpage says at http://honoomasamune.tumblr.com/ Quote" Pulouar Sword Dated: circa 1676 - 1725 Culture: Indian/Afghan Medium: steel, gold Measurements: overall length 97 cm; blade length 83 cm The Pulouar is an Afghan sword, also used in India, a variant of the Tulwar. It always displays a short guard, curved in the direction of the blade, and a hemispheric pommel without a counter guard. This piece displays a blade in watered steel, curved and with a slight wave in its double edge. Near the hilt a golden cartouche is desplayed with the following inscription: “Akbar Sha al-Sultan Mirza”. The hilt, also in steel, displays a spherical pommel completely covered in an engraved web motif and geometrical patterns. The hand guard features a delicate swan head on the pommel, also engraved, an inscription with the “Ali”, followed by the sentence “nasr min Allah wa il-fath qrabi.”Unquote. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st July 2016 at 09:16 PM.

22nd July 2016, 01:08 AM	#49
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is one of my pulouars. The other one is wootz, but the blade is flat, with no grooves. Attached Images

22nd July 2016, 02:54 AM	#50
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Outstanding comments and discussion! On the 'tears of the wounded' and other descriptions of these blade channels holding bearings, it seems generally held that these were typically 'court or parade' weapons. I have seen references suggesting that these channels would likely compromise the blade in combat situations, though I am sure that might be contested. The term 'pearls' is figurative as these are typically metal bearings. It is great to see these examples of 'paluoar' in their original rugged condition, which to me truly holds the intrinsic frontier character of the regions from which they come. While it is tempting to consider the often crude nature of some of the components and blades of many of these swords as 'fakery', it must be remembered that frontier armourers often used whatever items and skills however limited, to create arms for tribal use. While it seems these were indeed originating from some time in the 18th century, the scabbard with the asymmetrical carry rings (one on scabbard front) is similar to the latter 19th century Anglo-Afghan military swords. The parabolic Persian type shamshir blade on the example Ariel shows reflects the profound preference toward many Persian arms in these regions. Attached Images

21st July 2016, 07:16 PM	#34
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It IS old :-)))))))

21st July 2016, 08:16 PM	#42
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,870	As Ibrahiim points out, all edges of the grooves appear rounded like after long wear... yet you have the inlays in pretty good condition... Well... not really... so don't mind this last comment. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

21st July 2016, 08:33 PM	#44
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, Many old Afghan blades have grooves exactly like that. I am at work now, but will check my collection. Grooves like that were cut with very hard chisels all over the world. The round mark at the beginning of the groove is just a convenient starting point. I agree that the steadiness of hand was not exemplary, but we are not talking Assadullah here, this is a creation of a simple Afghani blacksmith making simple Afghani swords for simple Afghani slashing. Not exquisite, but perfectly sufficient for butchering a feringhi:-)) Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that Eric is absolutely correct: it is a genuinely old blade, 19 century at the latest. Of course, leather might be newer: scabbards did not survive very long in the field, Russian army regulations specified exchange of scabbards every 3 years. Professional fakers from India and Georgia routinely present artificially-aged leather scabbards: they do not look 1% as convincing as this one. While it is possible to fake the mastique, I certainly would like to know how to do it: it looks awfully old. My bottom line: 100% genuine, 100% old.

21st July 2016, 08:50 PM	#45
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,870	Your arguments appear to hold well, and I trust you guys are more experienced than me (it would be hard not to). However, you have seen my arguments and explanations from the mechanical point of view. And unless I have another good explanation on how those grooves were made, I will still be convinced it is a recent fake. The argument there are many blades with grooves like this is not very valid as 1. maybe there aren't that many 2. maybe all that are, are fakes. Indians started faking weapons since 19th century. Anyhow it would be quite boring if we all agree... right?!

21st July 2016, 11:48 PM	#48
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 410	Ibrahiim al Balooshi, thank you for the link to the Caravana collection. I have yet to explore it in any depth, but even a cursory scan is enough to appreciate its value. Breathtaking stuff, the existence of which amazes and confounds. Much appreciated.

22nd July 2016, 05:55 AM	#51
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I remember a treatise on the origins of the Afghani " regulation khyber", where this and similar examples were presented as the very last step in the purported "evolution" and attributed to the very last years of the 19th century, the ultimate achievement of the Mashin Khana that was established in 1887. Ironically, the very same communication showed a photograph of a gentleman named Mohammed Yakub Khan dated 1879 carrying a similar sword. Thus, the supposedly final evolutionary step was in fact the earliest one Darwin would have had a fit:-)))

23rd July 2016, 01:18 PM	#56
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	To magnify and examine The Ethnographic I saw some early photos; Illustrating Afghan swords...The sketch shows some Baluch and Afghan irregulars... armed.... with everything! Below this the largest/longest photo stars Yakub Khan at the centre with the description below. (The smaller photo of one of his officers is included separately to view better the sword.) For interest The small black and white picture shows the camp at Safed Sang. Quote from....https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...s_officers.jpg Group. The Amir Yakub Khan & sirdars of Kabul [At Safed Sang]. Photograph featuring Yakub Khan, the Amir of Afghanistan, seated in the centre, and his officers, taken in May 1879 by John Burke at Safed Sang in Afghanistan. The six foot tall Daoud Shah, from the Ghilzai tribe, his commander-in-chief, sits at the Amir's right. To the Amir's left is Habibullah Khan, the moustafi or prime minister. Burke accompanied British forces into Afghanistan in 1878 and covered the events of the Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-80), becoming the first significant photographer of the country and its people in the process. The British, having defeated the Amir Sher Ali's forces, wintered in Jalalabad, waiting for the new Amir Yakub Khan to accept their terms and conditions. One of the key figures in the negotiations was the military administrator Pierre Louis Napoleon Cavagnari (1841-1879), a half-Irish, half-Italian aristocrat who was appointed as emissary by the Viceroy Lord Lytton. In May 1879, Yakub Khan travelled to Gandamak, a village just outside Jalalabad and entered into negotiations with Cavagnari as a result of which the Treaty of Gandamak was signed whereby the Amir ceded territories to the British and accepted a British envoy in Kabul. Cavagnari took up the post of British Resident in Kabul in July 1879. He was known to be reckless and arrogant rather than discreet and his role as envoy was viewed as injudicious even by some of the British. The situation in Kabul was tense and eventually some Afghan troops who had not been paid by the Amir rebelled and attacked the Residency, killing Cavagnari and his mission in September 1879. The war was far from over despite the treaty and British troops were recalled over the mountains to occupy Kabul, secure it and launch punitive action against the Afghans. Yakub Khan abdicated, taking refuge in the British camp and was subsequently sent to India in December."Unquote. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd July 2016 at 05:43 PM.

24th July 2016, 03:41 AM	#58
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	My apologies, my notes on the photo I referred to were incorrect. What I meant was the photo by John Burke at the signing if the Treaty of Gandamak, 26 May, 1879. King Mohammed Yaqub Khan seated at center, on his left is Daoud Shah, his commander in chief......and my notation was to the distinct style of his hilt with the open parallel bar knuckleguard, recurved terminal at top. It is thought that this hilt was possibly a prototype for the military style hilts which were to be produced at the Mashin Khana at Kabul in the early 1890s. As seen in other photos, this style hilt is also to be found on the traditional Khyber blades, often with the 'Mazir I Sharif' stamp of Mashin Khana. The heavily channeled European style blade (also pictured) became the more regularly produced model into turn of the century. Later many of the hilts were in brass, but with this distinctive 'bayonet style' hilt. It seems that these Khyber bladed examples with military style hilts as pictured, may have been for some of the tribal levy's using traditional blades but with these Anglo-Afghan hilts. The styling of the slotted knuckle guard seems to correspond to some styling on a number of paluoars as well as tulwars from these regions in the Northwest Frontier into Afghanistan. The theme of the paper discussed the integration of the traditional blades and military style hilts as well as seeking the origins of the design, with the example of similar style in the sword of Daoud Shah in 1879 representing earliest known placement of its form. As I understood the title noting 'regulation Khyber' referred to the development of these military Afghan swords as well as their use with traditional Khyber blades in the tribal contingents . Attached Images

24th July 2016, 02:35 PM	#59
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This is true Jim: Afghanis were trying to mass produce their traditional Khybers at the Mashin Khana and to give them some European look( D guard). The upper one you have shown is an example. At the same time the mass-produced ones started using cheap materiel, - wood, - for the handles and got rid of any artistic elements present at the older handmade one. In a way, it was similar to what happened with Caucasian shashkas: the Russians appropriated it as their regulation weapon and modified it to the point of converting a beautiful native weapon into pretty ugly European-looking saber without the handguard ( the only homage to the original Caucasian inspiration in addition to the imitation of an eared pommel). But the last one you have shown that was also carried by Yakub Khan has nothing to do with the Khyber: both the handle and the blade are European, and the blades on different examples were of a variety of patterns, none of which had anything to do with the original Khybers. The Yakub Khan's one was in existence well before the establishment of Mashin Khan. Those were just colonial models. There was no evolution of Khybers : just a short-lived and unsuccessful attempt at mass production. And the purported "final step" of the presumed evolutionary process had nothing to do with the original model. As they say: true, true and unrelated.

24th July 2016, 08:29 PM	#60
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	This is called - look but do not see. I have to repeat again, Yakub Khan sword is different from the regulation Khyber knife. And I wrote about it in the article: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...regular+khyber "Evolution" regulation Khyber knife is not only to acquire the shackle guard. But numismatists - can not understand ...