292 photos of cannon models in French museums

cannonmn · 1st March 2012, 01:03 AM

Graybeard Blackpowder forum member "Steelcharge" has turned up more goodies, and posted them on that forum. One of the more interesting series are the 33 pages, 292 images, of antique cannon models in French museums, primarily in the Invalides in Paris. Some of the models are quite incredible, and some represent artillery concepts I've never seen before, such as a cannon and mortar cast as one piece.

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSear...6&New=T&Page=1

cannonmn · 2nd March 2012, 05:26 PM

Sorry, as in many library and some museum links, the "search" link expires after some time, maybe 48 hrs. in this case. Here's how to get there:

Go to this random, individual page from the set of 292, then click on this link which is at the very bottom. This will re-create the 33 "gallery" pages for you.

Go to:

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSear...E=2C6NU0KR3XVW

At bottom of that page, Click on:

petit modèle d'artillerie

M ELEY · 3rd March 2012, 10:34 AM

Awesome photos. Do any of your contacts on that other site have any pics of munitions, specifically barshot? I'm told the French were the only country that had barshot that looked like a dumbell, round cannon balls with a round bar connecting (vs the classic square bar of the Brit/Amer pieces and Span barshot rounded bar, but ends shaped like wedges vs cannon balls)

cannonmn · 3rd March 2012, 01:45 PM

Mr. E, I think last time we talked about bar shot was near the end of the Gettysburg "snow show." Anyway, here's Michael's extensive thread with more types of unusual projectiles than I've ever seen anywhere else:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=grape+shot

BTW, I am not sure all of the items pictured are legitimate cannon shot. Some of the "double-ended" shot look more like simple dumb bells to me, so I would not necessarily accept their mere presence on some museum's website as proof that they are authentic bar shot.

fernando · 3rd March 2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

... At bottom of that page, Click on:

petit modèle d'artillerie

So nice. In the Lisbon Military Museum there is also one room dedicated to the exhibition of artillery miniatures, expertly made by the arsenal smiths.
But i guess the quantity is not so large as in Paris.

cannonmn · 3rd March 2012, 02:54 PM

Fernando, I would love to see those models. Perhaps you could ask the museum if they have any plans to put photos online. If not, perhaps encourage them to do so.

fernando · 3rd March 2012, 04:09 PM

Unfortunately not the type of people; very strict military behaviour.
They are still in the ages in which visitors are not allowed to take pictures ... even without flash.
And they have no material online.
On the other hand, they have one of the greatest collections of (actual) bronze cannons ... besides inumerous iron early specimens.

fernando · 3rd March 2012, 04:39 PM

Some views:

.

Multumesc · 5th March 2012, 11:00 AM

Very interesting cannon in the last picture, from which country?

cannonmn · 5th March 2012, 04:02 PM

Anyone interested in more detail on the Arty museum in Lisbon? A gent named Steven H. Smith posts on the "Napoleon Series" forum and has posted quite a few topics on Portuguese artillery. Some are links to Google books on the subject, some are links to photos in various museums in Portugal, and of interest here is a link he posted to a Google book which was an old catalog of the Lisbon museum. If you cannot find it in a reasonable amt of time I could go back and hunt for it. Steven has posted many topics there on Spanish and other countries' artillery as well, usually Google books but more recently some items from the newly-digitized Spanish State Archives.

Also thanks to Fernando for posting those "illegal" photos of the Lisbon museum! What a waste the Portuguese gov't is making, all those rare wonderful cannons and to refuse to share the images with the world? Tragic.

The curious mortar in the last photo is certainly a Portuguese bronze mortar, but mounted on what appears to be an Indonesian-motif locally-made mortar bed. That's one of those "to die for" pieces; extraordinary.

GIO · 9th March 2012, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

.

The curious mortar in the last photo is certainly a Portuguese bronze mortar, but mounted on what appears to be an Indonesian-motif locally-made mortar bed. That's one of those "to die for" pieces; extraordinary.

More than Indonesian, I would say Chinese, IMHO

fernando · 9th March 2012, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

More than Indonesian, I would say Chinese, IMHO

Yes, a Howitzer cast in the Lisbon arsenal, taken to Macau and brought back on a bed featuring two Chinese dragons.
I am waiting for an email from the Military Museum with a more precise ( if so ) description.

fernando · 15th March 2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

... Also thanks to Fernando for posting those "illegal" photos of the Lisbon museum! What a waste the Portuguese gov't is making, all those rare wonderful cannons and to refuse to share the images with the world? Tragic..

Well, no more tragic than usual ... unfortunately

. Somehow a backward attitude but then, a zillion museums out there also still don't allow picture taking ... some of them only allowing pictures without flash or tripod. The pictures i posted here of the Museum cannon yard were not "illegal"; there is no restriction for picturing in the open space ... only inside the rooms. They say that, if one is interested in taking pictures in the rooms, a requirement must be addressed to the Museum Director (Colonel)

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonmn

... The curious mortar in the last photo is certainly a Portuguese bronze mortar, but mounted on what appears to be an Indonesian-motif locally-made mortar bed. That's one of those "to die for" pieces; extraordinary.

I have received a very attentive email from a (she) Sub-Lieutenat of the museologic section. She passed me the whole inventory description tag:
A small bronze howitzer of gross calibre dated from 1773, cast by Bartolomeu Dias da Costa , to be used essentially in curve shot. Provided with trunnions and wings in form of dolphins. On the breech are the Royal Crest and the insription "Mel. GOMES De CARVALHO E Sº TENE GERAL DA ARTra DO Rno" and below " O Tene CORONEL BARTOLOMEU DA COSTA EM LXa 1773".
It is mounted in an pompous bed of polichromed wood, tipicaly Chinese, sided by two lions.
This fire mouth was sent to Macau and, by the end of XVIII century, was returned, mounted on the mentioned bed.
Caliber 15 cms.
Date: XVIII century (1773)
Origin:Portugal.

1st March 2012, 01:03 AM	#1
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	292 photos of cannon models in French museums Graybeard Blackpowder forum member "Steelcharge" has turned up more goodies, and posted them on that forum. One of the more interesting series are the 33 pages, 292 images, of antique cannon models in French museums, primarily in the Invalides in Paris. Some of the models are quite incredible, and some represent artillery concepts I've never seen before, such as a cannon and mortar cast as one piece. http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSear...6&New=T&Page=1

2nd March 2012, 05:26 PM	#2
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	The link expires; here's how to get to the pages--- Sorry, as in many library and some museum links, the "search" link expires after some time, maybe 48 hrs. in this case. Here's how to get there: Go to this random, individual page from the set of 292, then click on this link which is at the very bottom. This will re-create the 33 "gallery" pages for you. Go to: http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSear...E=2C6NU0KR3XVW At bottom of that page, Click on: petit modèle d'artillerie

3rd March 2012, 04:39 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Some views: . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 3rd March 2012 at 06:22 PM.

3rd March 2012, 10:34 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Awesome photos. Do any of your contacts on that other site have any pics of munitions, specifically barshot? I'm told the French were the only country that had barshot that looked like a dumbell, round cannon balls with a round bar connecting (vs the classic square bar of the Brit/Amer pieces and Span barshot rounded bar, but ends shaped like wedges vs cannon balls)

3rd March 2012, 01:45 PM	#4
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Mr. E, I think last time we talked about bar shot was near the end of the Gettysburg "snow show." Anyway, here's Michael's extensive thread with more types of unusual projectiles than I've ever seen anywhere else: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=grape+shot BTW, I am not sure all of the items pictured are legitimate cannon shot. Some of the "double-ended" shot look more like simple dumb bells to me, so I would not necessarily accept their mere presence on some museum's website as proof that they are authentic bar shot.

3rd March 2012, 02:54 PM	#6
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Fernando, I would love to see those models. Perhaps you could ask the museum if they have any plans to put photos online. If not, perhaps encourage them to do so.

3rd March 2012, 04:09 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Unfortunately not the type of people; very strict military behaviour. They are still in the ages in which visitors are not allowed to take pictures ... even without flash. And they have no material online. On the other hand, they have one of the greatest collections of (actual) bronze cannons ... besides inumerous iron early specimens.

5th March 2012, 11:00 AM	#9
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	Very interesting cannon in the last picture, from which country?

5th March 2012, 04:02 PM	#10
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Anyone interested in more detail on the Arty museum in Lisbon? A gent named Steven H. Smith posts on the "Napoleon Series" forum and has posted quite a few topics on Portuguese artillery. Some are links to Google books on the subject, some are links to photos in various museums in Portugal, and of interest here is a link he posted to a Google book which was an old catalog of the Lisbon museum. If you cannot find it in a reasonable amt of time I could go back and hunt for it. Steven has posted many topics there on Spanish and other countries' artillery as well, usually Google books but more recently some items from the newly-digitized Spanish State Archives. Also thanks to Fernando for posting those "illegal" photos of the Lisbon museum! What a waste the Portuguese gov't is making, all those rare wonderful cannons and to refuse to share the images with the world? Tragic. The curious mortar in the last photo is certainly a Portuguese bronze mortar, but mounted on what appears to be an Indonesian-motif locally-made mortar bed. That's one of those "to die for" pieces; extraordinary.