My Pata

Bill M · 13th September 2007, 01:11 PM

Just got my first Pata. It has a feel of really being used, more than abused. Seems like a real battle weapon. I am taken aback by the sheer size of this at almost 50" long. It has a very flexible blade. Is this common to Patas?

I belive 18th/19th c.

I have heard that these are cousins to katars. Any comments on this or the flexible blade?

fernando · 13th September 2007, 10:05 PM

Hi Bill
My knowledge is deeply limited, but you can say that patas and katars are cousins indeed. Both are of ancestral Hindu origin.
The majority of patas have European blades, i think even in greater percentage than those in katars. In the very beginning a few blades could have been captured during battles ( with Portuguese ), but basicaly they were imported.
The experts wil tell you more about these particular weapons, considered a most complete type of edged weapon , but demanding for school training, which didn't help their prevailance on the field.
Best regards
fernando

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2007, 06:50 AM

Fernando,
You are most modest, and your knowledge is more than you will admit, given the remarkable weapons you seem to find these past years!!!

I am of the impression that the pata, as well as the katar are both in degree associated with the Marathas and their associations in trade with the Portuguese . While as indicated, there were certain instances of captured blades, there were a great number of blades of considerable length that would exceed the reach of most rapiers acquired in trade from Venice and Portugal. These early examples were from late 15th early 16th century presumably though most profound evidence seems of 17th c.

Many early examples of katar seem to be fashioned from either cut down or broken European sword blades, of course mounted in the same transverse grip hilt used in the gauntlet hilt of the pata. Although the katar is typically thought of as a punch or thrust dagger, it is known that it was used more typically in the same slashing cuts employed with the pata, though of course in closer quarters. It remains unclear whether these weapons developed concurrently or progressively from one or the other.

Bill's example shown here seems to be quite battleworthy and from the photos appears quite likely 18th c. Highly flexible broadsword blades were favored for the slashing cuts, and seem to contradict the presumption that the pata was used as a lance type thrusting weapon.

Nice fighting example Bill !!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2007, 06:35 AM

I have been reviewing notes on the pata and katar and though I would add some things here in case there might be further interest in this thread.

Apparantly the pata was a later development of the katar and the katar seems to have developed in southern India sometime early in the 16th c. Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (p.149 , fig.15.9) shows an early 16th c.sculpture at Jalakanthesvara Temple Mandapa , Vellore with a warrior wielding a gauntlet dagger. The key feature with these of course have to do with the traversely positioned grips that have suggested the primary function of a punch or thrust dagger.Elgood (op.cit.p.145) notes that by the late 16th to early 17th c. European blades became predominant on katars, and the katar, known as 'jambujadiya' in Sri Lanka, with the closing of the handguard and elongation of the blade became the 'ahura kadura' (=equestrian gauntlet sword).

It is interesting to note that the closed hilt gauntlet on these edged weapons seems to have evolved from the influence of European swords in the south and the developing hand guards eventually closed . These traversely gripped weapons diffused into the Maratha regions to the west, and has been noted the ready availability of European blades mounted in Maratha patas become relatively common.

Research on the possibility of earlier presence of the katar continues, while the development of the pata seems relatively established from the katar .

The reference in Stone (p.436) to the mysterious gauntlet sword described as a Moorish 'boarding sword' of 14th-15th c. once seemed a tempting possibility to the ancestry of the pata. This gauntlet weapon was mounted with a short straight blade between two shorter side blades, in somewhat a trident form. The Stone reference cites as a source an obscure c.1840 inventory of the Royal Armoury in Madrid for the weapon. The weapon was illustrated in Albert Calverts "Spanish Arms and Armour" in 1907 and is actually the only known example of the weapon, which has long since vanished. This strange weapon seems strikingly similar to the 'military forks' of 16th c. Europe (Stone p.450) and it seems almost as if the head of one of these combat altered pitchforks might have been joined with a gauntlet .
While intriguing, this line of speculation is entirely unsupportable and only mentioned here as the topic was included in a number of discussions a couple of years ago.

The question that remains is why was the traverse grip developed, and was the concept limited to the Subcontinent (aside from the curious manople).
The original purpose seems to have been for the thrust, but it is known that the Maratha technique seems to favor slashing, both with pata and katar.
Since shields are often held with traverse grips, and there were examples mounted with blades in the center, presumably for a thrust in adverse conditions...could this have led to the concept of traversely mounted grips on a dagger? It seems I have seen illustrations of a warrior using a shield with a long stiletto type blade using it in such a manner, but lost in notes.

Last, a reference in Burton(p.215) "...the maushtika (fist sword, stiletto) is only a span long, and thus very handy for all kinds of movements".
This reference to a 'fist' sword is extremely tempting to associate to the katar, though the period Burton is discussing is unstated and the term 'span' is decidedly vague (why would a 'sword' be only 9" long?).

This simply seemed like a good opportunity to discuss the katar and the development of the pata, and I would appreciate comments/corrections and observations that might help us better understand the history of these fascinating swords.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 15th September 2007, 01:06 PM

Damascene Work in India, 1892, by T. H. Hendley.

Page 10. The fist fills the grip of the Indian sword, and a large pommel confines the hand. Burton points out that this was the case long ago, as Arjuna is so represented grasping his weapon in the Caves of Elephanta. As the Indian does not fence, he does not require a straight pointed weapon. The Indian hilt is small and has no knuckle-guard. The heavier swords have knuckle-guards, and even basket hilts. The huge gauntlet swords – Patta – used by the Nagas or military monks of Jeypore, and by Mahrattas, have large steel gauntlets.
Comments to page 10. I find the description of how the hilts were held were good, and feel sure that he would have mentioned it, had the Indians held it otherwise.

Page 11. [about the katar] It is mentioned by Ibn Batuta, who lived in the days of Mohamed Toghluk, that is, about AD 1332.
Comments to page 11. A travel companion of Betuta’s was killed at the coast of west India, with a weapon described as being a katar. As the katar described, hardly is the first one ‘invented’, it is likely that the katar, as a weapon, is far older.

fernando · 15th September 2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... As the katar described, hardly is the first one ‘invented’, it is likely that the katar, as a weapon, is far older.

Sure thing.
May i add up a little detail, Bill, Jens and Jim ?
I have read that the older patás examples known around, are from the XVI century, which match their "joint venture" with European/Portuguese blades, right ?
It is amazing how two distinct atributions for the name patá are available. In Wikipedia they say the term derives froma the Portuguese pata ( with accentuation on the first "A" ) which means hoof , reminding the gauntlet of this sword. In Daehnhardt's work/s we read that the term is patá ( with accentuation on the second "A" ) and comes from the from Patãs = Pahans, whom constituted one of the many subdivisions of the Xatrias = Kchatryas cast, or Indian warriors, whom used them for military purpose, both in their homeland or abroad ( quoting Fray Sebastião Manrique in Viagens = Travels, a work of the 1600's ). Unfortunately i ignore whether he quotes this author only for the Pathan warriors or also for the sword name.
Mybe i will ask him one day.
Anyway i find this second attribution of the term the correct one.
fernando

13th September 2007, 01:11 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	My Pata Just got my first Pata. It has a feel of really being used, more than abused. Seems like a real battle weapon. I am taken aback by the sheer size of this at almost 50" long. It has a very flexible blade. Is this common to Patas? I belive 18th/19th c. I have heard that these are cousins to katars. Any comments on this or the flexible blade? Attached Images

13th September 2007, 10:05 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Hi Bill My knowledge is deeply limited, but you can say that patas and katars are cousins indeed. Both are of ancestral Hindu origin. The majority of patas have European blades, i think even in greater percentage than those in katars. In the very beginning a few blades could have been captured during battles ( with Portuguese ), but basicaly they were imported. The experts wil tell you more about these particular weapons, considered a most complete type of edged weapon , but demanding for school training, which didn't help their prevailance on the field. Best regards fernando

14th September 2007, 06:50 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Fernando, You are most modest, and your knowledge is more than you will admit, given the remarkable weapons you seem to find these past years!!! I am of the impression that the pata, as well as the katar are both in degree associated with the Marathas and their associations in trade with the Portuguese . While as indicated, there were certain instances of captured blades, there were a great number of blades of considerable length that would exceed the reach of most rapiers acquired in trade from Venice and Portugal. These early examples were from late 15th early 16th century presumably though most profound evidence seems of 17th c. Many early examples of katar seem to be fashioned from either cut down or broken European sword blades, of course mounted in the same transverse grip hilt used in the gauntlet hilt of the pata. Although the katar is typically thought of as a punch or thrust dagger, it is known that it was used more typically in the same slashing cuts employed with the pata, though of course in closer quarters. It remains unclear whether these weapons developed concurrently or progressively from one or the other. Bill's example shown here seems to be quite battleworthy and from the photos appears quite likely 18th c. Highly flexible broadsword blades were favored for the slashing cuts, and seem to contradict the presumption that the pata was used as a lance type thrusting weapon. Nice fighting example Bill !! All best regards, Jim

15th September 2007, 06:35 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I have been reviewing notes on the pata and katar and though I would add some things here in case there might be further interest in this thread. Apparantly the pata was a later development of the katar and the katar seems to have developed in southern India sometime early in the 16th c. Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms and Ritual" (p.149 , fig.15.9) shows an early 16th c.sculpture at Jalakanthesvara Temple Mandapa , Vellore with a warrior wielding a gauntlet dagger. The key feature with these of course have to do with the traversely positioned grips that have suggested the primary function of a punch or thrust dagger.Elgood (op.cit.p.145) notes that by the late 16th to early 17th c. European blades became predominant on katars, and the katar, known as 'jambujadiya' in Sri Lanka, with the closing of the handguard and elongation of the blade became the 'ahura kadura' (=equestrian gauntlet sword). It is interesting to note that the closed hilt gauntlet on these edged weapons seems to have evolved from the influence of European swords in the south and the developing hand guards eventually closed . These traversely gripped weapons diffused into the Maratha regions to the west, and has been noted the ready availability of European blades mounted in Maratha patas become relatively common. Research on the possibility of earlier presence of the katar continues, while the development of the pata seems relatively established from the katar . The reference in Stone (p.436) to the mysterious gauntlet sword described as a Moorish 'boarding sword' of 14th-15th c. once seemed a tempting possibility to the ancestry of the pata. This gauntlet weapon was mounted with a short straight blade between two shorter side blades, in somewhat a trident form. The Stone reference cites as a source an obscure c.1840 inventory of the Royal Armoury in Madrid for the weapon. The weapon was illustrated in Albert Calverts "Spanish Arms and Armour" in 1907 and is actually the only known example of the weapon, which has long since vanished. This strange weapon seems strikingly similar to the 'military forks' of 16th c. Europe (Stone p.450) and it seems almost as if the head of one of these combat altered pitchforks might have been joined with a gauntlet . While intriguing, this line of speculation is entirely unsupportable and only mentioned here as the topic was included in a number of discussions a couple of years ago. The question that remains is why was the traverse grip developed, and was the concept limited to the Subcontinent (aside from the curious manople). The original purpose seems to have been for the thrust, but it is known that the Maratha technique seems to favor slashing, both with pata and katar. Since shields are often held with traverse grips, and there were examples mounted with blades in the center, presumably for a thrust in adverse conditions...could this have led to the concept of traversely mounted grips on a dagger? It seems I have seen illustrations of a warrior using a shield with a long stiletto type blade using it in such a manner, but lost in notes. Last, a reference in Burton(p.215) "...the maushtika (fist sword, stiletto) is only a span long, and thus very handy for all kinds of movements". This reference to a 'fist' sword is extremely tempting to associate to the katar, though the period Burton is discussing is unstated and the term 'span' is decidedly vague (why would a 'sword' be only 9" long?). This simply seemed like a good opportunity to discuss the katar and the development of the pata, and I would appreciate comments/corrections and observations that might help us better understand the history of these fascinating swords. Best regards, Jim

15th September 2007, 01:06 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Damascene Work in India, 1892, by T. H. Hendley. Page 10. The fist fills the grip of the Indian sword, and a large pommel confines the hand. Burton points out that this was the case long ago, as Arjuna is so represented grasping his weapon in the Caves of Elephanta. As the Indian does not fence, he does not require a straight pointed weapon. The Indian hilt is small and has no knuckle-guard. The heavier swords have knuckle-guards, and even basket hilts. The huge gauntlet swords – Patta – used by the Nagas or military monks of Jeypore, and by Mahrattas, have large steel gauntlets. Comments to page 10. I find the description of how the hilts were held were good, and feel sure that he would have mentioned it, had the Indians held it otherwise. Page 11. [about the katar] It is mentioned by Ibn Batuta, who lived in the days of Mohamed Toghluk, that is, about AD 1332. Comments to page 11. A travel companion of Betuta’s was killed at the coast of west India, with a weapon described as being a katar. As the katar described, hardly is the first one ‘invented’, it is likely that the katar, as a weapon, is far older.