interesting breech-loading petronel-looking for additional info

Ahtagot · 4th October 2012, 01:40 PM

Hello all.

I found only one image of breech-loading matchlock petronel,
Maybe who has additional info about this petronel or same firearms ?

Thanks!

Ahtagot · 4th December 2012, 06:47 PM

Another photo.
C 1580, Nurenberg. form Deutsche history museum

fernando · 5th December 2012, 05:49 PM

Interesting theme, Ahtagot

Surely extemely rare pieces, such breech loading petronels. I wander whether there are more of the kind

Marcus den toom · 13th April 2014, 09:21 PM

I also wonder if there is more information on this subject... i have a feeling that a well accomplished scholar mostliky can tell us more about it, only where to find one

Matchlock · 14th April 2014, 01:08 PM

Hi Ahtagot,

Humbly guessing that I am that certain person Marcus alluded to, I will do my best.

All the b/w photos of 1967 you posted show guns that are preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg (GNM), inv.no. W 412. The inventory states that its provenace was the armory at Veste (fortress) of Coburg in Northern Bavaria.
The photo at the bottom also depicts the same GNM petronel, not a sample from the Historisches Museum Dresden.

The first attachments accompanying this post are photos of that very same gun, W 412; I took them in 1987.

The gun you are inquiring about is a 'military' breechloading matchlock petronel indeed.

Please see my thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...breech-loading

It can be dated to ca. 1590-1600 and was made in Suhl/Thuringia, Germany. The shape of the lock plate and, especially, of the serpentine (match holder), with its head engraved as a stylized smiling sea monster, both are characteristic of the Suhl style of manufacture.
The locksmith's mark, the initials VR above a hammer and two stars, is identified as 'Old' Stockel, Haandskydevaabens Bedømmelse, #4714.
A former small iron reinforcing mount is missing from the forestock below the muzzle; otherwise the blackened full stock had, due to his early date, no iron mounts. I cannot make out the kind of wood as no grain is visible but walnut would be typical of the second half of the 16th century, while beechwood was normally used by ca. 1600.
The term petronel traces back to the French poitrine, meaning that the buttstock was downcurved heavily and intended to be held before the arquebusier's breast when fired.
The long and slender tiller trigger, curved to follow the shape of the buttstock, is missing from the GNM petronel but is preserved on another, amost identical specimen that still is in the collections of the Veste of Coburg - see last two attachments.
As we know of two petronels we may assume that originally a small series of these breechloading matchlock muskets was oviously ordered in Suhl by the Coburg armory to equip a small number of 'elite' arquebusiers/musketeers.
And here is what the loading procedure was like:
The rear sight on the barrel was spring loaded and, when pushed backwards, allowed the breech section of the barrel to snap open (the long single-armed leaf spring is now incomplete). A paper cartridge was taken from a patron:

please see my thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=patron

The arquebusier/musketeer opened the cartridge with his teeth, took the lead ball and shoved it into the barrel; then the powder was poured from the cartridge into the open breech, with a small portion filling the igniting pan, and the breech was shut and bolted. Maybe the paper was crumbled and put in the barrel first, before the ball, just to prevent the latter from rolling out when the gun was lowered.
Of course, and technically speaking, the ramrod of breech-loading guns actually was a cleaning rod.

This principle of breechloading was kept almost unalteredly through four centuries of the black powder era but was inherently bound to cause considerable gas loss. This problem was the main reason why opening the breech never made it to the 'maturity phase' and was limited to very few pieces, no matter what principle of ignition it was used with respectively.

Author's photos.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 14th April 2014, 01:17 PM

Two more photos of the GNM petronel, and two others of its (better preserved) counterpart in the Veste Coburg.

m

Ahtagot · 13th October 2014, 02:35 PM

Oh my God!
This set of photos exceeded all my expectations.
Thank you very much Matchlock!

Spiridonov · 19th February 2017, 10:35 PM

Photos made by Alexander Suhanov:

Spiridonov · 20th February 2017, 04:23 PM

I've found mystery with lock of Nurnberg arquebus lock. We can see two filled slots. One for lever axis and one for lever spring. So, what is destination of empty slots?

fernando · 21st February 2017, 08:19 PM

No one around to give a suggestion ? Could it be that this plate had a previous use, in a different lock ?

4th October 2012, 01:40 PM	#1
Ahtagot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 4	interesting breech-loading petronel-looking for additional info Hello all. I found only one image of breech-loading matchlock petronel, Maybe who has additional info about this petronel or same firearms ? Thanks! Attached Images Last edited by Ahtagot; 4th October 2012 at 05:16 PM.

4th December 2012, 06:47 PM	#2
Ahtagot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 4	Another photo. C 1580, Nurenberg. form Deutsche history museum Attached Images

14th April 2014, 01:08 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Ahtagot, Humbly guessing that I am that certain person Marcus alluded to, I will do my best. All the b/w photos of 1967 you posted show guns that are preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg (GNM), inv.no. W 412. The inventory states that its provenace was the armory at Veste (fortress) of Coburg in Northern Bavaria. The photo at the bottom also depicts the same GNM petronel, not a sample from the Historisches Museum Dresden. The first attachments accompanying this post are photos of that very same gun, W 412; I took them in 1987. The gun you are inquiring about is a 'military' breechloading matchlock petronel indeed. Please see my thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...breech-loading It can be dated to ca. 1590-1600 and was made in Suhl/Thuringia, Germany. The shape of the lock plate and, especially, of the serpentine (match holder), with its head engraved as a stylized smiling sea monster, both are characteristic of the Suhl style of manufacture. The locksmith's mark, the initials VR above a hammer and two stars, is identified as 'Old' Stockel, Haandskydevaabens Bedømmelse, #4714. A former small iron reinforcing mount is missing from the forestock below the muzzle; otherwise the blackened full stock had, due to his early date, no iron mounts. I cannot make out the kind of wood as no grain is visible but walnut would be typical of the second half of the 16th century, while beechwood was normally used by ca. 1600. The term petronel traces back to the French poitrine, meaning that the buttstock was downcurved heavily and intended to be held before the arquebusier's breast when fired. The long and slender tiller trigger, curved to follow the shape of the buttstock, is missing from the GNM petronel but is preserved on another, amost identical specimen that still is in the collections of the Veste of Coburg - see last two attachments. As we know of two petronels we may assume that originally a small series of these breechloading matchlock muskets was oviously ordered in Suhl by the Coburg armory to equip a small number of 'elite' arquebusiers/musketeers. And here is what the loading procedure was like: The rear sight on the barrel was spring loaded and, when pushed backwards, allowed the breech section of the barrel to snap open (the long single-armed leaf spring is now incomplete). A paper cartridge was taken from a patron: please see my thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=patron The arquebusier/musketeer opened the cartridge with his teeth, took the lead ball and shoved it into the barrel; then the powder was poured from the cartridge into the open breech, with a small portion filling the igniting pan, and the breech was shut and bolted. Maybe the paper was crumbled and put in the barrel first, before the ball, just to prevent the latter from rolling out when the gun was lowered. Of course, and technically speaking, the ramrod of breech-loading guns actually was a cleaning rod. This principle of breechloading was kept almost unalteredly through four centuries of the black powder era but was inherently bound to cause considerable gas loss. This problem was the main reason why opening the breech never made it to the 'maturity phase' and was limited to very few pieces, no matter what principle of ignition it was used with respectively. Author's photos. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 14th April 2014 at 07:56 PM.

14th April 2014, 01:17 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two more photos of the GNM petronel, and two others of its (better preserved) counterpart in the Veste Coburg. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 15th April 2014 at 11:55 AM.

19th February 2017, 10:35 PM	#8
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Photos made by Alexander Suhanov: Attached Images

5th December 2012, 05:49 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Interesting theme, Ahtagot Surely extemely rare pieces, such breech loading petronels. I wander whether there are more of the kind

13th April 2014, 09:21 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 493	I also wonder if there is more information on this subject... i have a feeling that a well accomplished scholar mostliky can tell us more about it, only where to find one

13th October 2014, 02:35 PM	#7
Ahtagot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 4	Oh my God! This set of photos exceeded all my expectations. Thank you very much Matchlock!

20th February 2017, 04:23 PM	#9
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	I've found mystery with lock of Nurnberg arquebus lock. We can see two filled slots. One for lever axis and one for lever spring. So, what is destination of empty slots? Attached Images

21st February 2017, 08:19 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	No one around to give a suggestion ? Could it be that this plate had a previous use, in a different lock ?