Another Bosnian Dagger

Lew · 26th November 2006, 08:05 AM

This just ended to on ebay and was mislabeled as a Yeman dagger. the hilt is a of a different design when compared to my other dagger. How many hilt variations are there on these daggers? It seems that both daggers have the same makers mark? I found the same hilt design on a dagger in Tirri's book today also with the same makers mark on the blade. Here is a small version with a green bone hilt that I picked up this week.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280050799401

Lew

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2006, 10:01 AM

Hi Lew,
This one does seem a very different variation with this form pommel!
The shape brings to mind of course Moroccan koummya daggers, which seem a bit out of place in Bosnia. It seems that in research on the koummya, if I recall, it was suggested that the distinct arc shaped pommel may have derived from the Italian cinqueda hilt. Possibly there may also be a common influence root here?
One key thing I seem to see often on these Bosnian daggers is the dot and circle motif, which in turn seems to derive from very ancient symbolism and is often seen on various weapons especially from regions in and around Afghanistan. I've seen them on 'lohars' (or whatever they are!)and on a Buzkhashi whip I have (OK, no wise cracks about whips guys!!

.

Another thing noted on Bosnian weapons is those raised studs or posts that look like cleats on a sports shoe. These seem to appear on various edged weapons from Bosnia, including the yataghans. Anyone have ideas on any possible symbolic significance? Seems like it would make these weapons a bit awkward to handle.

Best regards,'
Jim

Ferguson · 26th November 2006, 11:47 AM

A very interesting knife Lew. Good snag.

Steve

Battara · 26th November 2006, 08:29 PM

MY favorite is the green dyed ivory hilted one - little rarer than the rest.

TVV · 27th November 2006, 06:36 AM

Great pieces Lew. In Hermann-Historica's "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persichen Kulturraum" there are some examples, which help illustrate the variety in styles.
I am not sure if the dot and circle motif is derived all the way from Central Asia, but this type of decoration is found on firearms from the region - you can see them on shishanes's stocks.

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2006, 04:26 AM

Hi TVV,
These simple geometric motifs seem to be found in various cultural spheres of course, most often suggested as having solar symbolic significance.
They are in any case quite ancient, and with trade routes, may have diffused widely.
An amulet from early 3rd century BC was found in Mathura in India made of bone, and with these dotted circles, and associated with protection i.e. shield significance.
In "The Afghan Amulet" (Sheila Payne, 1994, p.153), the author notes that "...the Kurds decorate the tombs of men with daggers, guns and tools. All are carved with solar circles, just like the tombs in Sind. They worship the sun and fire, just like the Zorastrians. They believe in the magic of a circle, which drawn around them will protect them".

This simple symbol in ancient Chinese meant 'sun' in the oldest Chinese writing ("Dictionary of Symbols", Carl G.Lungman , Sweden, 1974, p.25).
The influence of early China is well established over the ancient world, but it would be difficult to suggest direct links to the appearance of such a simple geometric figure in the contexts mentioned here. It does seem worthy of note regardless.

It would be interesting to know of other weaponry or material culture where these dotted circles appear.

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 1st December 2006, 06:14 AM

Jim,
Your observations are most interesting, as always. Since the dotted circle is a simple symbol, I wonder is the craftsmen in Bosnia did not arrive at it on their own, as it is really hard to see any link between ancient China and late 19th century Bosnia.
I have been told by contemporary craftsmen in Bulgaria (who decorate replica gun stocks), that the circle is hard to make. In many of the decorative circles there is more than just a dot, usually three triangles and it would resemble a nuclear symbol. Much of the decoration on Balkan arms is based on the intricate arrangement of simple geometric forms into brass rosettes. I have attached a picture illustrating how this works from a Bulgarian book dedicated to antique Balkan firerams, and a picture of the decoration on an actual rifle, where a solar motif is clearly visible in silver.
My personal opinion is that in the so called Islamic Baroque style, a solar motif was a bit intuitive to the craftsmen, who were limited in their expression by the use of simple geometric forms.
Regards,
Teodor

Battara · 1st December 2006, 07:36 PM

Yes I have been wondering about something while we are on (or off) the topic: sometimes I see the city name "Sarajevo" and a date - are such pieces with these on the blades in koftgari made for the market or "normal" for these pieces?

Lew · 1st December 2006, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes I have been wondering about something while we are on (or off) the topic: sometimes I see the city name "Sarajevo" and a date - are such pieces with these on the blades in koftgari made for the market or "normal" for these pieces?

I do not think they are dated for the market. Many smiths in Islam date their swords and daggers as seen on many older Sudan daggers marked OMDURMAN and the date of manufacture.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2006, 01:52 AM

Hi Teodor,
Thank you very much! I agree that any direct influence from China in Bosnia would seem unlikely, and such a simplistic device could easily been used almost anywhere worldwide, in fact that is noted in the symbols dictionary I cited. I find the use of symbols and markings on weapons fascinating and very much appreciate you posting the illustrations and sharing the notes on Bulgarian arms.
It is very interesting that these circles with the lines similar to present day 'radioactivity' symbols appear on these weapons as geometric motif. This is another thing that is fascinating, how certain early symbols have been adopted in modern times with meanings having nothing to do with original meanings, such as these 'radioactive' symbols and of course the swastika, which once used in Buddhism, was degraded by the unfortunate use later and remains instinctively despised.
I think your observation on solar motif being intuitively used in certain geometric motif is extremely well placed.

May I ask what is the title of the Bulgarian book on Balkan arms? It looks like a great reference.

Thanks again !

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 2nd December 2006, 03:01 AM

Jim,

I should have written the book's title and authors and I appologize for not doing so. The title is "Weaponry of the Past" by Viara Kovacheva and Nikola Daskalov, and is written in English. It is not a great reference as far as edged weapons are concerned, but it is a really good reference for anyone interested in Balkan firearms.
I have attached a scan of the cover.

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2006, 03:26 AM

Thanks very much Teodor!!!

Looks very interesting and books on anything Balkan as far as weapons are pretty scarce.
All the best,
Jim

26th November 2006, 08:05 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Another Bosnian Dagger This just ended to on ebay and was mislabeled as a Yeman dagger. the hilt is a of a different design when compared to my other dagger. How many hilt variations are there on these daggers? It seems that both daggers have the same makers mark? I found the same hilt design on a dagger in Tirri's book today also with the same makers mark on the blade. Here is a small version with a green bone hilt that I picked up this week. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280050799401 Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 26th November 2006 at 06:51 PM.

1st December 2006, 06:14 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,600	Jim, Your observations are most interesting, as always. Since the dotted circle is a simple symbol, I wonder is the craftsmen in Bosnia did not arrive at it on their own, as it is really hard to see any link between ancient China and late 19th century Bosnia. I have been told by contemporary craftsmen in Bulgaria (who decorate replica gun stocks), that the circle is hard to make. In many of the decorative circles there is more than just a dot, usually three triangles and it would resemble a nuclear symbol. Much of the decoration on Balkan arms is based on the intricate arrangement of simple geometric forms into brass rosettes. I have attached a picture illustrating how this works from a Bulgarian book dedicated to antique Balkan firerams, and a picture of the decoration on an actual rifle, where a solar motif is clearly visible in silver. My personal opinion is that in the so called Islamic Baroque style, a solar motif was a bit intuitive to the craftsmen, who were limited in their expression by the use of simple geometric forms. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

2nd December 2006, 03:01 AM	#11
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,600	Jim, I should have written the book's title and authors and I appologize for not doing so. The title is "Weaponry of the Past" by Viara Kovacheva and Nikola Daskalov, and is written in English. It is not a great reference as far as edged weapons are concerned, but it is a really good reference for anyone interested in Balkan firearms. I have attached a scan of the cover. Attached Images

26th November 2006, 10:01 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,782	Hi Lew, This one does seem a very different variation with this form pommel! The shape brings to mind of course Moroccan koummya daggers, which seem a bit out of place in Bosnia. It seems that in research on the koummya, if I recall, it was suggested that the distinct arc shaped pommel may have derived from the Italian cinqueda hilt. Possibly there may also be a common influence root here? One key thing I seem to see often on these Bosnian daggers is the dot and circle motif, which in turn seems to derive from very ancient symbolism and is often seen on various weapons especially from regions in and around Afghanistan. I've seen them on 'lohars' (or whatever they are!)and on a Buzkhashi whip I have (OK, no wise cracks about whips guys!! . Another thing noted on Bosnian weapons is those raised studs or posts that look like cleats on a sports shoe. These seem to appear on various edged weapons from Bosnia, including the yataghans. Anyone have ideas on any possible symbolic significance? Seems like it would make these weapons a bit awkward to handle. Best regards,' Jim

26th November 2006, 11:47 AM	#3
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	A very interesting knife Lew. Good snag. Steve

26th November 2006, 08:29 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	MY favorite is the green dyed ivory hilted one - little rarer than the rest.

27th November 2006, 06:36 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,600	Great pieces Lew. In Hermann-Historica's "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persichen Kulturraum" there are some examples, which help illustrate the variety in styles. I am not sure if the dot and circle motif is derived all the way from Central Asia, but this type of decoration is found on firearms from the region - you can see them on shishanes's stocks.

1st December 2006, 04:26 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,782	Hi TVV, These simple geometric motifs seem to be found in various cultural spheres of course, most often suggested as having solar symbolic significance. They are in any case quite ancient, and with trade routes, may have diffused widely. An amulet from early 3rd century BC was found in Mathura in India made of bone, and with these dotted circles, and associated with protection i.e. shield significance. In "The Afghan Amulet" (Sheila Payne, 1994, p.153), the author notes that "...the Kurds decorate the tombs of men with daggers, guns and tools. All are carved with solar circles, just like the tombs in Sind. They worship the sun and fire, just like the Zorastrians. They believe in the magic of a circle, which drawn around them will protect them". This simple symbol in ancient Chinese meant 'sun' in the oldest Chinese writing ("Dictionary of Symbols", Carl G.Lungman , Sweden, 1974, p.25). The influence of early China is well established over the ancient world, but it would be difficult to suggest direct links to the appearance of such a simple geometric figure in the contexts mentioned here. It does seem worthy of note regardless. It would be interesting to know of other weaponry or material culture where these dotted circles appear. All the best, Jim

1st December 2006, 07:36 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes I have been wondering about something while we are on (or off) the topic: sometimes I see the city name "Sarajevo" and a date - are such pieces with these on the blades in koftgari made for the market or "normal" for these pieces?

2nd December 2006, 01:52 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,782	Hi Teodor, Thank you very much! I agree that any direct influence from China in Bosnia would seem unlikely, and such a simplistic device could easily been used almost anywhere worldwide, in fact that is noted in the symbols dictionary I cited. I find the use of symbols and markings on weapons fascinating and very much appreciate you posting the illustrations and sharing the notes on Bulgarian arms. It is very interesting that these circles with the lines similar to present day 'radioactivity' symbols appear on these weapons as geometric motif. This is another thing that is fascinating, how certain early symbols have been adopted in modern times with meanings having nothing to do with original meanings, such as these 'radioactive' symbols and of course the swastika, which once used in Buddhism, was degraded by the unfortunate use later and remains instinctively despised. I think your observation on solar motif being intuitively used in certain geometric motif is extremely well placed. May I ask what is the title of the Bulgarian book on Balkan arms? It looks like a great reference. Thanks again ! All the best, Jim

2nd December 2006, 03:26 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,782	Thanks very much Teodor!!! Looks very interesting and books on anything Balkan as far as weapons are pretty scarce. All the best, Jim