Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 1st May 2016, 01:52 PM   #1
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 367
Default Pendongkok Keris Makassar/Gowa(?)

Hi guys,

Earlier this month I came to know that a person here in Malaysia found a gold pendongkok with rubies 4 feet in the ground using a metal detector. The weight is about 60 grams with 8 large rubies each encircled with another 8 smaller rubies. 2 of the rubies are missing. Usually this type of pendongkok are identified as Makassar/Gowa type. I don't know the exact location where this was found. But I think it was found in Kota Tinggi; southern part of Malaysia on the east coast - I think the owner is from around that area.

I should really purchase a metal detector to start a new hobby. Here are the images from this owner's Facebook. His name is Raja Kamaruzaman. I posted the pictures in different thread. As requested by David, I post the pictures of this pendongkok in a new thread. As a comparison I post some pictures of keris that were said to originate from Makassar or probably Bugis.
Attached Images
          
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2016, 07:52 PM   #2
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

He found this? I may move there.........
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2016, 10:41 PM   #3
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,192
Default

Local variants of this kind of Mendak/Selut are found also in North-Sumatra (Gayo) with Bawar hilts, which resemble early planar Javanese hilts, which possibly also are the source for Nias planar hilts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bawar
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Gustav; 1st May 2016 at 11:05 PM.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2016, 10:55 PM   #4
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,192
Default

The one from "Javanese Gold", Hunter Thompson collection. Who knows, if it really is coming from Java. If it is, it could be a hint to the possibility, that the refined aristocratic hilt figures could have been made after a Javanese model, or some of better workmanship even are made in Java.
Attached Images
 
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2016, 10:58 PM   #5
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,192
Default

And one from Tropenmuseum, found or acquired on Bali (which says not much about the real or possible origin) :
Attached Images
 
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2016, 11:50 PM   #6
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Gustav, thanks for posting the example from Old Javanese Gold. I was just coming here to do the same.
Just for further clarification, there is a somewhat different description of this ring in the actual book which provides additional information on its possible origins.
"This kris hilt fragment comes from the island of Ternate in eastern Indonesia, rather than Java, but it is highly similar to Javanese workmanship, the repoussé on the upper face are especially comparable to to those on Javanese anklets..."
Ternate is quite a distance away from Jawa off North Maluku.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by David; 2nd May 2016 at 05:47 AM. Reason: correct spelling
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2016, 02:33 AM   #7
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

I don't have the book.
Originates from; or was found, David?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2016, 05:48 AM   #8
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I don't have the book.
Originates from; or was found, David?
The information is a quote from the book Rick. I'm afraid i know no more.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2016, 04:46 PM   #9
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 367
Default

I've also been contemplating to do that Battara!

I didn't notice that Gayo keris also uses selut Gustav. Very interesting!

It seems that this selut/pendongkok were found where ever the Bugis sets foot on. From Sulawesi, Ternate, Bali and the Malay Peninsula. So, it is probably safe to assume that this style of selut is probably Sulawesi style since we also have a dated example above form 1749 which is a keris with Sulawesi dress.

Anybody know why the rubies in the metal detector selut are oddly and shaped? The shapes are different form each other it looks like naturally formed?
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2016, 06:25 PM   #10
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdan
Anybody know why the rubies in the metal detector selut are oddly and shaped? The shapes are different form each other it looks like naturally formed?
Ruby in its nature form is most likely as a crystal. The stones in this selut seem to have been tumble polished. That would account for various sizes and shapes. The naturally occurring mineral would not look like these polished stones, they would look more like these crystals below.
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2016, 06:03 AM   #11
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 367
Default

Cool! Thanks David. I always wondered how these stones were processed. Statring to think to DIY these stones for my selut project..
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2016, 07:36 AM   #12
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,675
Default

The red stones in these keris rings might be ruby, true, but they might also be tourmaline, or garnet or spinel, or even something else.

What David has shown us is most certainly one of the forms that ruby rough comes in, but if you are panning river gravel, or the old bed of a river that is no longer there, for ruby or other gemstones, the stones are usually like little water worn pebbles, the image I've posted shows more or less what you can expect them to look like, but they'll often be much smoother than in the pic.

In S.E. Asia, and also in India I believe, these little pebbles were individually polished to follow the shape of the stone. They were stuck onto the end of a stick with hard wax to permit the polishing.
Attached Images
 
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2016, 04:16 PM   #13
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 367
Default

Thanks Alan, no wonder some of the stones are very small. One guy showed me his talisman of this type of polished stones that looks like the seed of pomegranate. It makes sense that these stones were panned in a river as it is very small.
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2016, 06:19 PM   #14
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Well yes Alan, when rubies find there way into a river be they do become river worn and break down over time. But those river-worn ruby pebbles most certainly began as larger crystals since that is the way rubies form. You can still see the crystal structure in many of the fragments in Alan's photo.The same can be said for tourmaline and garnets. Is is my understanding that red, clear stones are such as garnet and tourmaline are generally referred to as ruby in that area.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2016, 11:36 PM   #15
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,675
Default

Yes David, that's correct.

They start as a crystal, and over time they become what I posted a pic of. Commercial mining for these gemstones can be carried out in a couple of ways, they can mine for what you posted a pic of, and often that will come as a lump of some sort of rock, with the gemstone crystal attached to it, or they can mine river gravel.

Sometimes the river gravels will be many meters below the surface of the ground, and they have to remove the over-burden before they actually get to the gem bearing deposit. Sometimes erosion over thousands of years will remove the over-burden, and you find the gemstones sitting on top of the earth, so its just a matter of the fossicker wandering around and picking up the rough. Sometimes you need to pan for them. I've seen some miners with big vacuum cleaner-like pumps, and they suck the gravel off the bottom of the river and run it down a sluice.

There's a lot of ways to mine or fossick for gemstones and for semi-precious stones, but currently here in Australia, I believe all the big operations are doing dry mining and removing over-burden to get at the gravels of long-gone rivers.

Semi-precious stones like agates and jasper you can often just pick up off the ground. I live on a lake and frequently go for a walk around the edge of the lake, occasionally I've picked up jasper and agate at the lakes edge. I even found a decent little agate in my backyard a couple of years ago.

But to get back to ruby. I've been out of gemstone dealing for more than 30 years now, but even 30 years ago, in fact even 50 years ago, it was very, very difficult to buy good ruby faceting material, my understanding is that these days it has gone from difficult to impossible. So what some dealers are doing is buying up old jewellery and remounting the stone. They particularly want bigger stones, because then they can make one big stone into two smaller ones, and it seems that this gives a higher profit.

This recut thing is not unknown in gemological circles. There was a diamond called the Tavernier Blue that first appeared in France in the 17th century. It came from India, and it was sold to the French ruler, after which it was known as the French Blue. In the 1790's it was stolen from the crown jewels and recut into the Hope diamond, so it would not be recognised, the smaller part of the Tavernier was recut and made into a ring for the wife of a Russian Emperor (Paul I?)

To get back to rubies. Yes, at the pasar level in Jawa all red stones that can easily be confused with rubies are called "mirah". In Javanese the word 'mirah' means both 'red' and 'ruby'. However, in Indonesian the correct name for ruby is 'mirah delima', or even 'batu delima'. Indonesian dealers in antiques and precious stones tend to take advantage of this potentially confusing situation. The good, reputable jewellers do not work the buyer like this and mostly they refer to ruby as 'ruby', so there is no confusion, but in the pasars anything that's red gets called 'mirah'.

I used to sell a lot of chrysoprase to wholesalers in Bali and Central Jawa. This stuff got cut into Chinese looking stones and mostly mounted in Chinese looking gold jewellery. When it hit the marketplace it was called "Hong Kong Jade". True jade it very hard, you will not mark it with a sharp knife. Chrysoprase is very soft and easily scratched, and of course only a fraction the value of jade.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.