Russian Guard axes - questions

wolviex · 26th November 2005, 01:10 PM

Dear Friends!

I'm looking for any informations, catalogue pictures and measurements of russian guard axes. I have only this one picture, posted below. I believe they were in use in 17th century, but maybe also earlier and later. They are of crescent shape, quite massive, and in general they seem to be similiar to parade axes known from Persia (tabar-zins) and Turkey.
I really hope you have something like this in your great libriaries

Thank you in advance!

Jens Nordlunde · 26th November 2005, 07:07 PM

Hi Wolviex, could the axes be from another country than Russia? The reason why I ask is, that I have been looking in the catalogue 'Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo', and not found anything looking like the axes you show, and I would expect to find axes like that in a catalogue from Russia - although it is no garantee. I am sure you have been looking in the catalogue too

.

Jens

Rivkin · 26th November 2005, 07:32 PM

These axes disappeared long begore Tsarskoe Selo collection was formed... I doubt there are any in St.Petersburg area, there are axes are so Moscow.

wolviex · 27th November 2005, 01:30 PM

Hello Jens!
I'm sure axes are Russian. I was looking for them in some Russian books, but I found nothing. This picture is from old book "Risunki odiezdy u wooruzenija Rossijskich wojsk" (I tried to transliterate from Russian alphabet, so excuse me any mistakes.

Hello Rivkin!
Yes, I believe they're Moscow, while in 17th century the court was still on Kremlin.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th November 2005, 03:25 PM

Hello Wolviex,

Which museum in Moscow would have old weapons, are there an armoury museum in Kremlin?

When I had asked the question above, I remembered that I have a small booklet called ‘Repertory of Museums of Arms and Military History, Copenhagen 1960.

Centralnij Musej Sovetskoj Armij (Central Museum of the Soviet Army), Municipal Square 2, Moscow.

Oruzejnaja Palata (State Armoury), The Kremlin.

Gosudarstvennij Istoritjesti Musej (The State Museum of History), The Red Square, House No. 1-2.

I realise that some, if not all, the museums can have changed their name, but museums don’t often change address. I am sorry, but that is all I have.

Jens

Aqtai · 27th November 2005, 03:46 PM

They are very similar to Mamluk tabars.

ariel · 27th November 2005, 03:49 PM

There is a book on e-bay right now dealing with russian tsars arsenal. I cannot post it now but will do when the auction ends. There is a picture of the ax in question.

B.I · 29th November 2005, 05:45 PM

hi michal,
i assume this is the axe that you have drawn (silhouette).
it is thought to be 1st half of the 17thC, but no exact date is known.

wolviex · 29th November 2005, 07:24 PM

Ah! Stupid me! In Polish - posolski=poselski

now it's so obvious.Thank you Rivkin!

Hi Brian! This is exactly the same axe! I'm happy about the date, because I'm looking for the axes just from this period (strictly around 1640-50). Thank you for this photo.

If anybody have any other pictures or informations, please post them! I will be happy if you'll find any other examples of such axes from territories on the East of Poland (except Ottoman and Persian ones, these are well known).

Thank you and regards!

wolviex · 13th December 2005, 12:37 PM

*bump*

Another picture of russian axe of this type, from known 16th century engraving, where you can also find other Russian weapons and armament. If anyone have other pictures or informations, please post them here.

Regards!

B.I · 13th December 2005, 09:20 PM

hi michal,
not sure if this is of any use, nor whether you will be able to read it here. if not, i will email you a larger pic if requested. it has the stats at the top.

wolviex · 13th December 2005, 09:41 PM

Thank you Brian, everything is legible, and this text is next great help. As we can read, they are great rarity. But this is rarity of ambassadorial axes, I wonder what about simple war axes, or just ceremonial axes (if there were any) like this presented on engraving, with other (most or less) popular or known weapons. Well, we have sabres, bows, saddles, everything what we can find on this picture, but axes

Regards

PZ93C · 15th December 2005, 05:41 AM

If I had to guess, and it is a wild guess, I'd say that your picture in the firstpost predates the example pictured in BI's post. The genuine article seems more decorated, ceremonial maybe, than the ones that are drawn.

The drawn axes look business-like. Not just pretty.

Brian

26th November 2005, 01:10 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Russian Guard axes - questions Dear Friends! I'm looking for any informations, catalogue pictures and measurements of russian guard axes. I have only this one picture, posted below. I believe they were in use in 17th century, but maybe also earlier and later. They are of crescent shape, quite massive, and in general they seem to be similiar to parade axes known from Persia (tabar-zins) and Turkey. I really hope you have something like this in your great libriaries Thank you in advance! Attached Images

26th November 2005, 07:07 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Wolviex, could the axes be from another country than Russia? The reason why I ask is, that I have been looking in the catalogue 'Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo', and not found anything looking like the axes you show, and I would expect to find axes like that in a catalogue from Russia - although it is no garantee. I am sure you have been looking in the catalogue too. Jens

29th November 2005, 05:45 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, i assume this is the axe that you have drawn (silhouette). it is thought to be 1st half of the 17thC, but no exact date is known. Attached Images

13th December 2005, 12:37 PM	#10
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	bump Another picture of russian axe of this type, from known 16th century engraving, where you can also find other Russian weapons and armament. If anyone have other pictures or informations, please post them here. Regards! Attached Images

13th December 2005, 09:20 PM	#11
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, not sure if this is of any use, nor whether you will be able to read it here. if not, i will email you a larger pic if requested. it has the stats at the top. Attached Images

26th November 2005, 07:32 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	These axes disappeared long begore Tsarskoe Selo collection was formed... I doubt there are any in St.Petersburg area, there are axes are so Moscow.

27th November 2005, 01:30 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hello Jens! I'm sure axes are Russian. I was looking for them in some Russian books, but I found nothing. This picture is from old book "Risunki odiezdy u wooruzenija Rossijskich wojsk" (I tried to transliterate from Russian alphabet, so excuse me any mistakes. Hello Rivkin! Yes, I believe they're Moscow, while in 17th century the court was still on Kremlin.

27th November 2005, 03:25 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hello Wolviex, Which museum in Moscow would have old weapons, are there an armoury museum in Kremlin? When I had asked the question above, I remembered that I have a small booklet called ‘Repertory of Museums of Arms and Military History, Copenhagen 1960. Centralnij Musej Sovetskoj Armij (Central Museum of the Soviet Army), Municipal Square 2, Moscow. Oruzejnaja Palata (State Armoury), The Kremlin. Gosudarstvennij Istoritjesti Musej (The State Museum of History), The Red Square, House No. 1-2. I realise that some, if not all, the museums can have changed their name, but museums don’t often change address. I am sorry, but that is all I have. Jens

27th November 2005, 03:46 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	They are very similar to Mamluk tabars.

27th November 2005, 03:49 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a book on e-bay right now dealing with russian tsars arsenal. I cannot post it now but will do when the auction ends. There is a picture of the ax in question.

29th November 2005, 07:24 PM	#9
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Ah! Stupid me! In Polish - posolski=poselski now it's so obvious.Thank you Rivkin! Hi Brian! This is exactly the same axe! I'm happy about the date, because I'm looking for the axes just from this period (strictly around 1640-50). Thank you for this photo. If anybody have any other pictures or informations, please post them! I will be happy if you'll find any other examples of such axes from territories on the East of Poland (except Ottoman and Persian ones, these are well known). Thank you and regards!

13th December 2005, 09:41 PM	#12
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you Brian, everything is legible, and this text is next great help. As we can read, they are great rarity. But this is rarity of ambassadorial axes, I wonder what about simple war axes, or just ceremonial axes (if there were any) like this presented on engraving, with other (most or less) popular or known weapons. Well, we have sabres, bows, saddles, everything what we can find on this picture, but axes Regards

15th December 2005, 05:41 AM	#13
PZ93C Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1	If I had to guess, and it is a wild guess, I'd say that your picture in the firstpost predates the example pictured in BI's post. The genuine article seems more decorated, ceremonial maybe, than the ones that are drawn. The drawn axes look business-like. Not just pretty. Brian