An Old Keris

oversky · 28th March 2007, 11:09 AM

Dear list,

I got this old keris few years ago. The sheath and handle are not original. Some friend told me it's maybe more than 3,00 years. I like the pamor very much, it's beautiful. And I don't know much about this keris, I want to listen to your ideas, they will help me a lot. Thanks!

David · 28th March 2007, 03:55 PM

It is indeed and old keris which has seen better days. I think i count 9 luk(curves) on this blade. Unfortunately it seems that the gonjo, the seperate piece at the base of the blade, is gone. The hilt is an unknown form to me and doesn't seem appropriate for this keris. How long is the blade?

oversky · 28th March 2007, 06:37 PM

Thanks, David.
The blade is 34 cm long, it's totally 45 cm long (including the handle). There have a small mar on the top of the blade, it maybe caused in the war. I believe this keris is used in actual combat for many years, and it's not keep well by the quondam owner.

oversky · 28th March 2007, 06:44 PM

Another two photos

David · 28th March 2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oversky

quondam owner

Nice word. I had to look that one up!

I doubt this keris was used much in combat by it's previous owner. It is not really a combat weapon of first choice. I believe it received it's abuse in other ways.

I think the pamor might be wos wutah (scattered rice).

lelang69 · 29th March 2007, 05:26 AM

Hai david and Oversky Nice meet you agin.

Ganja is lost you right David. nice keris david? For you Mr Oversky. yes artificialy this nice keris. But unfortunatly I doubt it. There are many Maduranese made it. the material from old steel or keris and reform to the new keris.

abuse David? Unsold I am sure and smack it down

[phrase deleted by Moderator]

Any way it's good keris oversky. I hope you posting your othe nice keris. be sure getting the comment for the expert one.

welcome for the expert of the keris please help Oversky

oversky · 29th March 2007, 10:59 AM

Thanks, lelang69
This is my first keris. The keris is small and unburliness, I don't think it is useful as WOOZS or other swords in the real war, but I like the veins of blade when I see it in the first time, it's beautiful and different from other swords. I can see the superposition of different materials on the blade. And I remember my friends told me there have aerosiderite in the blade, it's attract me a lot. I want to learn more about keris.

David · 29th March 2007, 03:34 PM

Lelang, i am not sure i understand your comments about Oversky's keris. Are you saying that you think it is a new Madurese keris made from old keris and then aged to look old?

I do understand that you have difficulty with English (though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian), but perhaps you could clarify your position.
I too would like to know the meaning of the words you posted in reference to me. Once again i must ask you not to post in other languages without a complete translation. Thanks.

lelang69 · 31st March 2007, 03:38 AM

Quote:

I do understand that you have difficulty with English (though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian), but perhaps you could clarify your position.
I too would like to know the meaning of the words you posted in reference to me. Once again i must ask you not to post in other languages without a complete translation. Thanks.

Your welcome Oversky.

May you get nice keris and complete condition for the next time (sorry for the bad english). and sorry for the large font make moderator and list unconfenient and disappointed.

David thanks , you don't understand of english and Large font of mine but you realy aware it as aware as your private messages to me

Mans · 31st March 2007, 07:44 PM

Hello dear all...

,

First, I want to say that Oversky is right. He told his keris as Old Made with not original wrangka and handle. And it is a very good expression, especially because he didn't know much about the keris. I really appreciate that, indeed !!

David also absolutely right that the gonjo of this keris was lost. Really pity

.... because philosophy of the pesi and gonjo of the keris is shown that everything in the world made coupled ... like man and women (Lingga - Yoni). That beginning of the people's live is came from man and women. And this part cannot be separated (except the keris with used Gonjo Iras).

In the other side, In my experiences, Lelang also right to supposed that this keris is Maduran. But IMO, the Oversky's keris is authentic old made. Not re-blended or revisioned. From style of the blade, luk and iron also pamor, I supposed that this keris is Pamekasan Madura keris (Keris Tangguh Pamekasan) with pamor Kulit Semangka (watermelon skin). The dapur is Kidang Milar (keris luk 9 without Kembang Kacang and Sogokan).

The Maduranese keris usually have atractive / nice pamor. But some Pamekasan Madura keris has rough pamor and iron work. So that why some keris lovers who didn't really familiar with Maduranese keris often supposed that the keris like this is a new made which forged from old blade as row materials, but actually not. This keris has shown the character of Pamekasan keris.

Here I posted another Pamekasan keris for complement in this thread.. ...

Regards!
Hidayat.

Rick · 31st March 2007, 09:20 PM

A lovely example Mans.

Kiai Carita · 1st April 2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

This keris has shown the character of Pamekasan keris.

Here I posted another Pamekasan keris for complement in this thread.. ...

Regards!
Hidayat.

Assalamu'alaekum Pak Manshur,

Thank you for identifying the dhapur of the above keris - for me at least, it saved me opening books and searching! Nice to have you posting with your expertise and experience, not to mention photos!

Obviousely my eyes need more training but they seemed to think that the photo you posted above as an example of a Pamekasan keris has luks decidedly more ringkel than the kemba luks on Oversky's keris. Am I correct in this? Please if you can, could you elaborate on the reasons you think Oversky's is a Pamekasan keris? And what would the dates of the tangguh Pamekasan be, approximately? Thank you in advance.

Wassalam,
Selamat Maulud Nabi S.A.W (Happy Birthday of the Prophet (Peace be Upon Him)

Bram.

oversky · 1st April 2007, 01:47 PM

The microgram of my another Keris, it's kept well. From some Keris articles, we can see the white part is aerosiderite, and the black part is commonly iron( I believe there is something cover the iron). If kerises are not kept well, the superstratum on the commonly iron will be shell off, the superposition of materials on the blade will appear(we can easily see it), like my keris. Is it right? Thanks!

Mans · 1st April 2007, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

......
Please if you can, could you elaborate on the reasons you think Oversky's is a Pamekasan keris? And what would the dates of the tangguh Pamekasan be, approximately? Thank you in advance.

Wassalam,
Selamat Maulud Nabi S.A.W (Happy Birthday of the Prophet (Peace be Upon Him)

Bram.

Dear all...
Wa'alaikum salaam Mas Bram.. Selamat Maulid Nabi juga,
Also I really thank you for your comment about my keris, Rick. I hope useful for all of us to learning the keris.

.....
Mas Bram, I feel we didn't talking about the keris by email for long time ya

? I hope you always fine and healthy...

Actually me my self just has a little expertise and experiences about the keris. So far, I'm still learning too.. So, perhaps I gave wrong opinion too.. And it shown that discussion, learning about local cultures, go to keris market and many places where the keris made are very important to do. ...

....
Indeed that the luks of my Pamekasan keris is more rengkol (wavier ?) than Oversky's keris. I had posted 2 pictures of Pamekasan keris which has different luks style. The second keris has wavier luks than first keris. So, both of these Pamekasan keris has different luks style, but has same characters of pamor style, iron work, gandik style, and pamor layers. Luks style is just one indocators to analysis the tangguh of the keris. Other indicators is gandik style. Here I posted the pictures of Pamekasan keris without kembang kacang. So, the style of the gandik is similiar with Oversky's keris. Pamekasan keris has gandik which more aslant (oblique) that usually Sumenep or Tuban keris. In the other side, layers of iron and pamor of Pamekasan keris is more little than usually Jawanese keris. At back side (Wadidang), the wavy Pamekasan keris usually has Ron Dha Nunut, and the Oversky's keris have it too. And if I can handed Oversky's keris by my self, I supposed that it havier than usually Jawanese keris. So, I supposed that his keris is Tangguh Pamekasan. And for the estimating era, Pamekasan keris like this usually made on Mataram era (about 17-18th century).

Well, that is my humble opinion, Mas Bram...

Wassalaam,
Hidayat.

David · 1st April 2007, 02:44 PM

Thanks for your illustrated clarification and opinions Mans. I am also inclined to place Oversky's keris in East Jawa or Madura. The sloping lean of the gandik seems to imply this as well. I would think though that in it's current condition and missing it's gonjo (amongst other things) it would be somewhat difficult to place within the tangguh system.

Oversky, i am afaid i do not see anything definitive that would identify this bit of pamor in your keris as being meteoric ore (aerosiderite). We have had may long threads on the difficulties of IDing such material in keris. You might want to use our search feature to find them.

This is not to say that it isn't possible that the material could be meteorite, though i am not sure it is likely.

28th March 2007, 11:09 AM	#1
oversky Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: H.K. Posts: 5	An Old Keris Dear list, I got this old keris few years ago. The sheath and handle are not original. Some friend told me it's maybe more than 3,00 years. I like the pamor very much, it's beautiful. And I don't know much about this keris, I want to listen to your ideas, they will help me a lot. Thanks! Attached Images

28th March 2007, 06:44 PM	#4
oversky Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: H.K. Posts: 5	Another two photos Attached Images

29th March 2007, 05:26 AM	#6
lelang69 Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 60	Artificial old keris Hai david and Oversky Nice meet you agin. Ganja is lost you right David. nice keris david? For you Mr Oversky. yes artificialy this nice keris. But unfortunatly I doubt it. There are many Maduranese made it. the material from old steel or keris and reform to the new keris. abuse David? Unsold I am sure and smack it down [phrase deleted by Moderator] Any way it's good keris oversky. I hope you posting your othe nice keris. be sure getting the comment for the expert one. welcome for the expert of the keris please help Oversky Last edited by David; 30th March 2007 at 03:29 AM.

31st March 2007, 07:44 PM	#10
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Keris Pamekasan Madura Hello dear all... , First, I want to say that Oversky is right. He told his keris as Old Made with not original wrangka and handle. And it is a very good expression, especially because he didn't know much about the keris. I really appreciate that, indeed !! David also absolutely right that the gonjo of this keris was lost. Really pity .... because philosophy of the pesi and gonjo of the keris is shown that everything in the world made coupled ... like man and women (Lingga - Yoni). That beginning of the people's live is came from man and women. And this part cannot be separated (except the keris with used Gonjo Iras). In the other side, In my experiences, Lelang also right to supposed that this keris is Maduran. But IMO, the Oversky's keris is authentic old made. Not re-blended or revisioned. From style of the blade, luk and iron also pamor, I supposed that this keris is Pamekasan Madura keris (Keris Tangguh Pamekasan) with pamor Kulit Semangka (watermelon skin). The dapur is Kidang Milar (keris luk 9 without Kembang Kacang and Sogokan). The Maduranese keris usually have atractive / nice pamor. But some Pamekasan Madura keris has rough pamor and iron work. So that why some keris lovers who didn't really familiar with Maduranese keris often supposed that the keris like this is a new made which forged from old blade as row materials, but actually not. This keris has shown the character of Pamekasan keris. Here I posted another Pamekasan keris for complement in this thread.. ... Regards! Hidayat. Attached Images

1st April 2007, 01:47 PM	#13
oversky Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: H.K. Posts: 5	The microgram of my another Keris, it's kept well. From some Keris articles, we can see the white part is aerosiderite, and the black part is commonly iron( I believe there is something cover the iron). If kerises are not kept well, the superstratum on the commonly iron will be shell off, the superposition of materials on the blade will appear(we can easily see it), like my keris. Is it right? Thanks! Attached Images

28th March 2007, 03:55 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	It is indeed and old keris which has seen better days. I think i count 9 luk(curves) on this blade. Unfortunately it seems that the gonjo, the seperate piece at the base of the blade, is gone. The hilt is an unknown form to me and doesn't seem appropriate for this keris. How long is the blade?

28th March 2007, 06:37 PM	#3
oversky Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: H.K. Posts: 5	Thanks, David. The blade is 34 cm long, it's totally 45 cm long (including the handle). There have a small mar on the top of the blade, it maybe caused in the war. I believe this keris is used in actual combat for many years, and it's not keep well by the quondam owner.

29th March 2007, 10:59 AM	#7
oversky Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: H.K. Posts: 5	Thanks, lelang69 This is my first keris. The keris is small and unburliness, I don't think it is useful as WOOZS or other swords in the real war, but I like the veins of blade when I see it in the first time, it's beautiful and different from other swords. I can see the superposition of different materials on the blade. And I remember my friends told me there have aerosiderite in the blade, it's attract me a lot. I want to learn more about keris.

29th March 2007, 03:34 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Lelang, i am not sure i understand your comments about Oversky's keris. Are you saying that you think it is a new Madurese keris made from old keris and then aged to look old? I do understand that you have difficulty with English (though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian), but perhaps you could clarify your position. I too would like to know the meaning of the words you posted in reference to me. Once again i must ask you not to post in other languages without a complete translation. Thanks.

31st March 2007, 09:20 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	A lovely example Mans.

1st April 2007, 02:44 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Thanks for your illustrated clarification and opinions Mans. I am also inclined to place Oversky's keris in East Jawa or Madura. The sloping lean of the gandik seems to imply this as well. I would think though that in it's current condition and missing it's gonjo (amongst other things) it would be somewhat difficult to place within the tangguh system. Oversky, i am afaid i do not see anything definitive that would identify this bit of pamor in your keris as being meteoric ore (aerosiderite). We have had may long threads on the difficulties of IDing such material in keris. You might want to use our search feature to find them. This is not to say that it isn't possible that the material could be meteorite, though i am not sure it is likely.