spanish colonial lances

[chevalier]

on another point, i find it extremely interesting that the comanches where able during the period between 1800 - 1860 to raid as far south as guatemala and honduras and made almost regular forays as deep into mexico as san luis potosi and tampico.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Chevalier for the extra detail on the wording in the book, which makes a great deal of sense. It seems that the British and American weapons were probably relatively heavier, especially in the polearms, as I have not seen the Spanish 'tomahawks' to guage. The British polearms were typically spontoons and some halberds I believe, which of course would not have been traded, and I dont believe either British or Americans used lances here in those times.

As has been discussed, the Spanish Colonial use of the lance was in many if not most cases a primary weapon, rather than a secondary or ancillary weapon. Its manner of use was probably much in the way used by the American Indians of southern plains, as a shorter spear or stabbing weapon. I would imagine the shafts of the Spanish lances must have been shorter than the typical lances of Europe, which were around 8 feet long or so. These were tremendously awkward in the melee, and used as a primary weapon in shock action, with movement to secondary weapons after contact. The Spaniards kept stabbing with them, in one instance narrating the Battle of San Pascual, it notes that one American dragoon was stabbed sixteen times by lance before falling.

In the Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain reference, there is no mention of tomahawks among the weapons described, which of course does not mean they did not exist in these Spanish Colonial regions, but it seems as comprehensive as the book is that they should be mentioned if of any significance. There are of course halberds and spontoons shown, and Taylor (op.cit.) notes that early 'tomahawks' were often comprised of heads of these weapons among tribes in Iroquois regions as the familiar pipe tomahawk developed. I found no specific mention of tomahawks in the Simmons and Turley reference, though one spontoon is shown and the head is more like a very large lance head, ornate, and probably from regions to the south.

You're right on the Comanches, it is truly amazing what amazing distances they travelled in thier raiding. The intensity of thier raids for horses seems to be often the key subject on them in regions all over Texas, which in my own travels across the state has come up many times. One small city has its town square and virtually the entire town history focused on a monumental Comanche horse raid there in about the 1870's if I recall.

Thank you bringing up this topic....you always bring in good ones!!!
It was great revisiting old notes and remembering how fascinating the weapons of New Spain really were!!!

[Gonzalo G]

The lance and the spontoon were typical weapons and tool in the colonial and post-colonial periods in Mexico. The lance was a weapon used mainly, but not exclusively, by the cavalry since the conquest. Lancers charges were common from the troops from Cortéz. Latter, the lance was used, not only by the presidio troops, but also by the cowboys to manage the catttle. There were cavalry lancers along all the 19th Century in Mexico, including California, Arizona, Texas and New México. Those lances were long poled weapons, not as the indian ones, and not to be used as the indian´s, or thrown. As Jim says, the lance was the primary wepon of the cavalry, and not the sword, the sabre or the machete. I think the lance was much more common in México than is the USA, but I can be mistaken. We have many examples on the museums.

Tomahawks I only have seen them in the most "european" style, the hatchet used by the colonizers, not the classical "indian" used by the USA indians. The comanches never went more to the south than the north side of the State of San Luis Potosí, not even to central México. I find greatly inacurate that statement. But they were already in all the northeast Mexico, as the apache in the central north and also in the northeast, mainly the mezcaleros.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Its good to hear from you Gonzalo, and I have been compelled to look more into resources dealing with the lance in the Americas. It is as I have noted, a fascinating topic, and I discovered a bit more on them.

I am inclined to agree, that movements or raids of the Comanches that far into Latin America seems somewhat questionable. There was of course trade between many American Indian tribes well into Mexico, but it would seem more a case of interface between tribal groups at the perimeters of thier territories. In degree this is the exception with Comanches, who do not seem to have had specifically defined territories, but I would need more support to show them as far as Central America.

I agree that the nature of the lances used did have variation, and seem to have become longer in time from the earliest record of them in the Americas.
I found some material in "Leather Jacket Soldiers: The Cuera Cavalry of the American Southwest" by Rene Chartrand. "Military Illustrated" Part I, #53, October,1992 and Part II, #54, Nov.1992.

From this and other sources, I have found the following, so hope it will be of interest to everyone in the history of the lance in the America's.

"...the Presidial soldier had thier lances and shield from the 16th to the middle of the 19th centuries". (p.36).

During inspection of Spanish troopers at El Paso in October, 1684, it is noted that lances "...were not counted, but it was obvious they had them".
A traveller in 1697 mentions that these soldiers were armed with a shield , musket and a 'half pike'. (ibid.)
The inspection of the first Cuera soldiers by Juan de Onate in 1597, in New Mexico shows a lance with a triple blade head termed a 'runka'. (op.cit.p.25)

Through the 18th century, Michael Hardwicke ("Soldados de Cuera") describes the cavalry lances components : the iron head (moharra) seems to have determined various classes of this weapon; some heads of olive leaf shape (hoja de olivo), some diamond shape (punta de diamente) and some that adopted a cross bar (cruceta) just under the head. These were termed a 'reins cutter' (corta riendas), but the bars ended up being removed when the purpose proved impractical.

In 1807, then Lt. Zebulon of U.S. 1st Cavalry encountered Presidial cavalry and noted, "...the appearance of the Spanish troops is certainly a la militaire; thier lances are fixed to the side of thier saddle under the left thigh and slant about five feet above the horse". It is suggested these lances probably had the 'cruceta' bars on them in the accompanying illustration.

Surprisingly, there were native irregular cavalry in Colombia in the war between Simon Bolivar and the Spanish, and on the Plain of Apure, these forces "...showed remarkable skill in the use of a long light lance" and became the dread and terror of the Spanish troops.
("Travels Through the Interior of Colombia", Col. John H.Potter, London, 1827,p.168).

In 1828, Mexican dragoons carried the long lance with red, white and green pennons. Later, as earlier noted, the Californios distinguished themselves at the famed Battle of San Pascual in California in 1846 ("Lances at San Pascual", Arthur Woodward, 1948) and in the Garra Uprising in 1851, lances were made in Los Angeles to equip lanceros.
By the time of the Civil War, units of Mexican lancers were established for the Union Army, but remained in Arizona regions.

The powerful influence of Mexican lancers found its way further east during this time as well, and in 1861, a regiment of lancers was formed in the 6th Pennsylvania Cavalry, known as "Rush's Lancers" and were involved in many campaigns in the war, though the degree the lance was actually used is uncertain. They used a 9 foot long lance with 11" blade based on Austrian pattern, weighing about 8 lbs. with a scarlet pennon (Rush had been active in the Mexican American War, and wonder if the red pennon might have recalled those on the Californio lances ).
( for more see "American Polearms 1526-1865" Rodney Hilton Brown, 1967)

Clearly Mexican forces had profoundly influenced the American forces in the 'Mexican American War' with the proficient use of the lance being one of the notable factors, as units of lancers were formed with Mexicans in the west, and the unit in Pennsylvania.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

!Very well stated and based points, Jim! !Excellent! I envy you for the access to all this material. It seems that there are more old archives about Mexico in the USA, than in this country. Many researchers of mexican history have to go to Austin and other places to look for documents of primary sources.

Comanches and apaches could infltrate North Mexico because the existing very low density of population, so they have ample ways to move, atack and retreat, though there were apache mezcalero villages in the State of Coahuila-Texas in which the indians lived peacefully. The Central Mexico was very densely populated. Raiders would be liquidated easily. The conquest was done with the support, among others, of one of the most ferocious indian people, the tlaxcaltecatl, never conquered by the meshica, now known as the aztec (thus, the name of Méshico or México, composed by the words "meshica" and "co", meaning the place of the meshica). Those indians were very efficient in the fight against the comanche and apache raiders.

The military lances I have seen on the mexican museums, tend to be of the heavy type, but I don´t know to which degree this examples are representative of the uses prevalent in the cavalry. Mostly, they are lances and spontoons from the War of Intervention, against frech invaders.
My regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gonzalo,
Thank you so much for those very kind words. I work very hard to discover all I can on these things so I can share the information here, and we can all learn from discussing it. I have mostly just computer access to much of the data, but still have notes and material from research done on Spanish Colonial weapons over many years. It has always been one of my favorite subjects as I have always admired the colorful histories of Mexico and Spain, and grew up in Southern California. My passion has always been fueled by the memory of a treasured old espada ancha I owned in my youth.

Presently I am in Arizona, and have travelled in areas deeply endowed with this rich history, and am heading toward New Mexico. One cannot help but imagine the history that seems to be present everywhere, and you can almost see the soldados and vaqueros in the breathtaking scenery, as if in a time machine.

Thank you for the information on the Meshica, and this information I had not been aware of, and it is great learning more on the tribal histories of these groups.

I cannot be sure of the lances variations, but am presuming that the heavy ones were line cavalry examples, where types used by irregular troops or even many frontier soldados were lighter and possibly shorter for close in combat. On the frontier, as in most cases in front line combat forces, need exceeds regulation, and variations of weapons would likely increase. I am always amazed at the ingenuity and industrious creativity of frontier armourers and blacksmiths.

Thank you again Gonzalo!
All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Thankyouuuu, Jim. I see what do you mean...I have found some sources.
My best regards

Gonzalo