A well travelled Bikaner Blade?

olikara · 20th February 2008, 05:32 PM

I have before the forum an interesting South Indian Sword. I recently acquired it.

Here are my comments on this piece:-

1. It is South Indian from the monster head pommel - Yali, and the general construction of the hilt. Note the serrated disc holding the tangs, an unique Deccani attribute. The hilt is also made of Brass, another popular South Indian metal working tradition.

2. It is about a foot and a half in length. The blade is a recurving blade, like a sosun patta.

3. Now, the most surprising observation. The blade has distinct Bikaner Armoury markings. However, this particular piece is not very ostentatious and fine like the other Vijaynagar weapons at Bikaner, many of whom are shown in Elgood's 'Hindu Arms and Ritual'.

4. I think the hilt may have been cast at some village armoury in the South and from a much later period say mid to late 1800's, a period which did see a profusion of such brass cast weapons around Old Mysore and Tanjore.

But, could this piece actually have been an original but simple specimen from the Vijaynagar period.

Or to solve all our problems, a rehilt!

Nidhi Olikara

VANDOO · 20th February 2008, 05:55 PM

WHAT A STRANGE AND INTERESTING GRIP. IT WOULD APPEAR THAT WHEN YOU HOLD IT IT WOULD BE LIKE GRIPPING A PISTOL. I HAVE SEEN THE PISTOL GRIP FORM ON MALAY AND INDONESIAN DAGGERS BUT NOT ON A INDIAN SWORD. FROM THE SIZE YOU GIVE IT IS EITHER A LARGE DAGGER, OR A SHORT SWORD. THE WEAPONS I HAVE SEEN USING A PISTOL GRIP ARE USUALLY SHORT DAGGERS AS THE GRIP STYLE WOULD NOT BE AS GOOD ON A LONG BLADE.
SORRY I CAN'T HELP ON ANY INFORMATION PERHAPS THOSE WHO COLLECT INDIAN WEAPONS CAN BE OF HELP. A VERY NICE AND UNUSUAL ITEM.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2008, 04:31 PM

Nidhin,

I don’t think the blade has been rehilted, and if it hasn’t, it is not a Bikaner blade, then it is a blade from the south, with a Bikaner armoury marking.

When you look at many of the weapons with this mark, they do not all origin from Bikaner, but they come from many different places – a lot of them from the south. There were, in the earlier days, many wars where whole armouries were emptied by the winner, and the weapons taken into the winners armoury – sometimes they were marked, sometimes not.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2008, 10:01 PM

Can it be true that only Wandoo an I are the only ones interested in commenting on this south Indian daggar? Or is it be course few knows about these daggers?
Which is it???

Rick · 23rd February 2008, 12:38 AM

Jens , so you are saying that at the very least this blade has at one time been part of the Bikaner Armory inventory although not necessarily forged there .

This hilting arrangement seems unwieldy to my untrained eye .

olikara · 23rd February 2008, 09:18 AM

Rick,

Yes, the pistol hilt may not be very user-friendly.

But it could be useful for ritual sacrifices. That is to say, not convenient for thrusts or cuts but rather for one sharp downward stroke?

Nidhin

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2008, 12:46 PM

Rick,

The hilt is from south India, and as I don’t think the dagger has been rehilted, the blade must be too. In the Bikaner armoury, like in many other armouries there were a mix of weapons from a lot of other places, so I find it likely that the dagger was looted, either from the battle field or from an armoury.

Rick · 23rd February 2008, 04:50 PM

Thanks Nidhin, that sounds like a reasonable explanation for this piece.

Thank you Jens for the clarification on your post; that's what I thought you meant .

Rick

20th February 2008, 05:32 PM	#1
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	A well travelled Bikaner Blade? I have before the forum an interesting South Indian Sword. I recently acquired it. Here are my comments on this piece:- 1. It is South Indian from the monster head pommel - Yali, and the general construction of the hilt. Note the serrated disc holding the tangs, an unique Deccani attribute. The hilt is also made of Brass, another popular South Indian metal working tradition. 2. It is about a foot and a half in length. The blade is a recurving blade, like a sosun patta. 3. Now, the most surprising observation. The blade has distinct Bikaner Armoury markings. However, this particular piece is not very ostentatious and fine like the other Vijaynagar weapons at Bikaner, many of whom are shown in Elgood's 'Hindu Arms and Ritual'. 4. I think the hilt may have been cast at some village armoury in the South and from a much later period say mid to late 1800's, a period which did see a profusion of such brass cast weapons around Old Mysore and Tanjore. But, could this piece actually have been an original but simple specimen from the Vijaynagar period. Or to solve all our problems, a rehilt! Nidhi Olikara Attached Images

23rd February 2008, 09:18 AM	#6
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Sacrificial Rick, Yes, the pistol hilt may not be very user-friendly. But it could be useful for ritual sacrifices. That is to say, not convenient for thrusts or cuts but rather for one sharp downward stroke? Nidhin

20th February 2008, 05:55 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WHAT A STRANGE AND INTERESTING GRIP. IT WOULD APPEAR THAT WHEN YOU HOLD IT IT WOULD BE LIKE GRIPPING A PISTOL. I HAVE SEEN THE PISTOL GRIP FORM ON MALAY AND INDONESIAN DAGGERS BUT NOT ON A INDIAN SWORD. FROM THE SIZE YOU GIVE IT IS EITHER A LARGE DAGGER, OR A SHORT SWORD. THE WEAPONS I HAVE SEEN USING A PISTOL GRIP ARE USUALLY SHORT DAGGERS AS THE GRIP STYLE WOULD NOT BE AS GOOD ON A LONG BLADE. SORRY I CAN'T HELP ON ANY INFORMATION PERHAPS THOSE WHO COLLECT INDIAN WEAPONS CAN BE OF HELP. A VERY NICE AND UNUSUAL ITEM.

22nd February 2008, 04:31 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Nidhin, I don’t think the blade has been rehilted, and if it hasn’t, it is not a Bikaner blade, then it is a blade from the south, with a Bikaner armoury marking. When you look at many of the weapons with this mark, they do not all origin from Bikaner, but they come from many different places – a lot of them from the south. There were, in the earlier days, many wars where whole armouries were emptied by the winner, and the weapons taken into the winners armoury – sometimes they were marked, sometimes not.

22nd February 2008, 10:01 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Can it be true that only Wandoo an I are the only ones interested in commenting on this south Indian daggar? Or is it be course few knows about these daggers? Which is it???

23rd February 2008, 12:38 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Jens , so you are saying that at the very least this blade has at one time been part of the Bikaner Armory inventory although not necessarily forged there . This hilting arrangement seems unwieldy to my untrained eye .

23rd February 2008, 12:46 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Rick, The hilt is from south India, and as I don’t think the dagger has been rehilted, the blade must be too. In the Bikaner armoury, like in many other armouries there were a mix of weapons from a lot of other places, so I find it likely that the dagger was looted, either from the battle field or from an armoury.

23rd February 2008, 04:50 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Thanks Nidhin, that sounds like a reasonable explanation for this piece. Thank you Jens for the clarification on your post; that's what I thought you meant . Rick