Two beauties

Flavio · 27th January 2007, 01:37 PM

Hi all, here are two of my last purchases for comments: a yataghan and a guradè. Is the handle of the yataghan rhino? it's quite different from other horn handles that i have, but maybe is a different kind of cow

Thank you

Flavio · 27th January 2007, 01:41 PM

The yatagahan

Flavio · 27th January 2007, 01:43 PM

More. The total leght in scabbard is 86 cm!!

S.Al-Anizi · 27th January 2007, 07:48 PM

Hello Flavio,

congratulations on those pieces, they're very nice. Especially that gurade, each collection must have one

What brand of blade is it? It doesnt seem to be a G.G., nor a Wilkinson.

Also, the date on the yataghan is 1274 AH, which translates to 1857 AD.

Flavio · 27th January 2007, 08:43 PM

Thank you S.Al-Anizi

To be honest i don't know the brand of the blade, there aren't signatures only the lion of Etiopia is present but not visible because covered.

Paul Digard · 27th January 2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

What brand of blade is it? It doesnt seem to be a G.G., nor a Wilkinson.

Do you know where/who by these GG blades were made? They crop up from time to time on British military swords from Napoleonic through Victorian times. Ebay sellers are often fond of saying this means the sword is from the grenadier guards but I don't recall ever hearing what the mark actually means.

ANy info gratefully received!

Paul

S.Al-Anizi · 27th January 2007, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Digard

Do you know where/who by these GG blades were made? They crop up from time to time on British military swords from Napoleonic through Victorian times. Ebay sellers are often fond of saying this means the sword is from the grenadier guards but I don't recall ever hearing what the mark actually means.

ANy info gratefully received!

Paul

All I learnt about them was that the G.G stands for Ges Gesch, a German factory that made blades, which also uses the thermometer sign on the ricasso of their blades. Of course, all this info I know comes from Jeff and Jim, who know alot more about this than I do. All the G.G blades Ive seen were on Ethiopian fittings, both sabres and broadswords.

roanoa · 27th January 2007, 10:18 PM

The GG has been discussed on the Ethiopia, Anyone? thread. It stands for GESETZLICH GESCHUETZT, which means Mark of Guarantee (more or less). Cheers, RON

VANDOO · 28th January 2007, 02:41 PM

THE HORN HANDLE SURE LOOKS LIKE RHINO TO ME AND WOULD BE AN UNUSUAL MATERIAL FOR TURKISH SWORDS. VERY GOOD PICTURES BY THE WAY. CONGRADULATIONS ON THE TWO BEAUTIES.

Flavio · 28th January 2007, 04:14 PM

Thank you very much Vandoo

I'd like to ear also from other what they think about the handle.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2007, 04:51 PM

Outstanding photos Flavio, and these two really are beauties!!!
That is possibly the nicest gurade I've seen in some time, very crisp and clear etching.
Actually Jeff is more the expert than I on these! and of course Ron, I'm glad to see you come in on this! Thank you for reemphasizing the GG marking and that it is essentially a quality trademark. This always to me recalls the German marking 'eisenhauer' which occurs often on thier blades, and has often been misconstrued as a makers name. It is of course, as those who speak German know, the term for 'iron cutting' and represents the strength and quality of the blade. I have even seen the representative term for 'iron cutting' employed on Chinese blades, where it occurred in Chinese characters and I was quite surprised to see that in translation!

If I am not mistaken, blades in Solingen, this most likely being an example, were produced by various makers and often etched and decorated by the exporters who furnished the blades to trade markets. The Wilkinson blades that are distinctly marked were from arrangements that took place early in the 20th century, much of the product prior to that via subcontractors, Mole in particular.

The yataghan is a very nice example, and I hope we can get some discussion going. The conundrum of whether a yataghan is Turkish, Balkan or even Greek I dont think has ever been satisfactorily resolved, at least as far as I know, and I would sure like to know more about the differences.
The games afoot guys!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 28th January 2007, 04:59 PM

Beautiful pieces Flavio!

I had thought that the very large bare bone/rhino eared pommel was Turkish, while those encassed in silver and brass were Greek and misc. Ottoman. The really angular (almost cubic) ones are Serbian...I recall reading. Still need to get the Atsvatsurian book

Looking at your example I start to wonder about the bolster...the thing about most yataghan I have seen is that the junction between blade and tang is covered by the extended bolster piece, so no way of seeing whether there is an integral bolster like the flyssa has, or not. Is the tang just a flat continuation of the blade or is there a "bolster bulb"?

Regards,
Emanuel

Flavio · 28th January 2007, 05:03 PM

Thanks Jim, if I can show this beautiful guradè it is thanks to Roano and also to Tim!! Thank you guys

Flavio · 28th January 2007, 05:15 PM

Hi Emanuel, thank you! My yataghan shows a bolster like the other yataghans that I have seen (only on book to tell you the truth

) that isn't a unique piece like on flyssas, just mine has the bolster in brass covered with leather!!

If I can i will take a pic of the below part of the handle where this thing is visible.

roanoa · 28th January 2007, 11:18 PM

Jim, yes, of course, Eisenhauer simply means "iron cutter" . The same term was emploied by other countries. I know for a fact that some Italian blades are marked TAGLIAFERRO (sometimes in two words TAGLIA FERRO) which means the same thing. I was told that these blades were actually tested by cutting in two a real iron spike. Ah, the good old days when such claims were actually backed up by facts.
Flavio, it is a pleasure to know that one of my swords has found such a warm and loving home in Italy.....

asomotif · 29th January 2007, 03:18 PM

Dear Flavio,

Wonderfull items, please don't post these to often, it makes it very difficult to keep my focus on Borneo and Indonesia

Extending my collecction to other countries is out of my budget

Small addition to the Eisenhauer / Ironcutter remarks.
Dutch swords often show this too : Yzerhouwer
Often complemented with a makers name, sometimes even with a german makers name like WKC and a dutch importer that finally fitted the blade.

As for the Rhino hilt. I am far from an expert and only once held a precious and delicately cut chinese vase made from rhino horn. but Rhino horn is basically a bundle of hair and the top and sides of the scabbard very much give the impression of Rhino horn.

Surely there must be more experienced collectors amongst us that can be consulted.

Best regards,
Willem

Flavio · 29th January 2007, 05:24 PM

Thank you again dear Roano!!
Willem you have to start to collect also the african stuff

27th January 2007, 01:37 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Two beauties Hi all, here are two of my last purchases for comments: a yataghan and a guradè. Is the handle of the yataghan rhino? it's quite different from other horn handles that i have, but maybe is a different kind of cow Thank you Attached Images

27th January 2007, 01:41 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	The yatagahan Attached Images

27th January 2007, 01:43 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	More. The total leght in scabbard is 86 cm!! Attached Images

27th January 2007, 07:48 PM	#4
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Hello Flavio, congratulations on those pieces, they're very nice. Especially that gurade, each collection must have one What brand of blade is it? It doesnt seem to be a G.G., nor a Wilkinson. Also, the date on the yataghan is 1274 AH, which translates to 1857 AD.

27th January 2007, 08:43 PM	#5
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you S.Al-Anizi To be honest i don't know the brand of the blade, there aren't signatures only the lion of Etiopia is present but not visible because covered.

27th January 2007, 10:18 PM	#8
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 230	The GG has been discussed on the Ethiopia, Anyone? thread. It stands for GESETZLICH GESCHUETZT, which means Mark of Guarantee (more or less). Cheers, RON

28th January 2007, 02:41 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE HORN HANDLE SURE LOOKS LIKE RHINO TO ME AND WOULD BE AN UNUSUAL MATERIAL FOR TURKISH SWORDS. VERY GOOD PICTURES BY THE WAY. CONGRADULATIONS ON THE TWO BEAUTIES.

28th January 2007, 04:14 PM	#10
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much Vandoo I'd like to ear also from other what they think about the handle.

28th January 2007, 04:51 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Outstanding photos Flavio, and these two really are beauties!!! That is possibly the nicest gurade I've seen in some time, very crisp and clear etching. Actually Jeff is more the expert than I on these! and of course Ron, I'm glad to see you come in on this! Thank you for reemphasizing the GG marking and that it is essentially a quality trademark. This always to me recalls the German marking 'eisenhauer' which occurs often on thier blades, and has often been misconstrued as a makers name. It is of course, as those who speak German know, the term for 'iron cutting' and represents the strength and quality of the blade. I have even seen the representative term for 'iron cutting' employed on Chinese blades, where it occurred in Chinese characters and I was quite surprised to see that in translation! If I am not mistaken, blades in Solingen, this most likely being an example, were produced by various makers and often etched and decorated by the exporters who furnished the blades to trade markets. The Wilkinson blades that are distinctly marked were from arrangements that took place early in the 20th century, much of the product prior to that via subcontractors, Mole in particular. The yataghan is a very nice example, and I hope we can get some discussion going. The conundrum of whether a yataghan is Turkish, Balkan or even Greek I dont think has ever been satisfactorily resolved, at least as far as I know, and I would sure like to know more about the differences. The games afoot guys!!!! All the best, Jim

28th January 2007, 04:59 PM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Beautiful pieces Flavio! I had thought that the very large bare bone/rhino eared pommel was Turkish, while those encassed in silver and brass were Greek and misc. Ottoman. The really angular (almost cubic) ones are Serbian...I recall reading. Still need to get the Atsvatsurian book Looking at your example I start to wonder about the bolster...the thing about most yataghan I have seen is that the junction between blade and tang is covered by the extended bolster piece, so no way of seeing whether there is an integral bolster like the flyssa has, or not. Is the tang just a flat continuation of the blade or is there a "bolster bulb"? Regards, Emanuel

28th January 2007, 05:03 PM	#13
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thanks Jim, if I can show this beautiful guradè it is thanks to Roano and also to Tim!! Thank you guys

28th January 2007, 05:15 PM	#14
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Emanuel, thank you! My yataghan shows a bolster like the other yataghans that I have seen (only on book to tell you the truth ) that isn't a unique piece like on flyssas, just mine has the bolster in brass covered with leather!! If I can i will take a pic of the below part of the handle where this thing is visible.

28th January 2007, 11:18 PM	#15
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 230	Jim, yes, of course, Eisenhauer simply means "iron cutter" . The same term was emploied by other countries. I know for a fact that some Italian blades are marked TAGLIAFERRO (sometimes in two words TAGLIA FERRO) which means the same thing. I was told that these blades were actually tested by cutting in two a real iron spike. Ah, the good old days when such claims were actually backed up by facts. Flavio, it is a pleasure to know that one of my swords has found such a warm and loving home in Italy.....

29th January 2007, 03:18 PM	#16
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Dear Flavio, Wonderfull items, please don't post these to often, it makes it very difficult to keep my focus on Borneo and Indonesia Extending my collecction to other countries is out of my budget Small addition to the Eisenhauer / Ironcutter remarks. Dutch swords often show this too : Yzerhouwer Often complemented with a makers name, sometimes even with a german makers name like WKC and a dutch importer that finally fitted the blade. As for the Rhino hilt. I am far from an expert and only once held a precious and delicately cut chinese vase made from rhino horn. but Rhino horn is basically a bundle of hair and the top and sides of the scabbard very much give the impression of Rhino horn. Surely there must be more experienced collectors amongst us that can be consulted. Best regards, Willem

29th January 2007, 05:24 PM	#17
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you again dear Roano!! Willem you have to start to collect also the african stuff