Royal Armouries Support Group Leeds.

David R · 28th February 2013, 12:00 PM

Just in case anyone is interested, I am a member of the Royal Armouries Support Group, we meet regularly on the last Thursday of every month, in the Library of the Royal Armouries Leeds, starting 19.30 and generaly ending about 21.00.
We are a friendly bunch of collectors of all sort of arms and armour, and meet to show off our new aquisitions or renovations and discuss related subjects.
Tonight I will be giving a talk on the English Longbow. I should have posted something ages ago, but at least I remembered today.

Micke D · 1st March 2013, 06:47 AM

Hello David!

Do you guys in the Royal Armouries Support Group have any special access to take photographs of things on display?

The thing is that I need a few good photos of the bow pattern of one of the crossbows on display but when I was there to see it, a few years ago, it was moved to a Froissart exhibition and turned the other way around and impossible to get any photos of. Sadly it has returned to its display place, but still facing the wrong way.

Mikael Dahlström,
Stockholm LockbowSociety,
Sweden

David R · 3rd March 2013, 11:02 PM

We do get the occasional trip into the back rooms certainly. Your best bet though is to contact the Library at the Leeds Armoury, and ask if they have any stock photo's of the piece. All items in the collection have been photographed, from different angles, and these pictures kept on file for reference. You will generaly find the staff helpfull and happy to sort copies out for you. I will say though that with the cutbacks they are a bit undermanned and may take a little time to sort stuff out for you.

PClemente · 4th March 2013, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Just in case anyone is interested, I am a member of the Royal Armouries Support Group, we meet regularly on the last Thursday of every month, in the Library of the Royal Armouries Leeds, starting 19.30 and generaly ending about 21.00.
We are a friendly bunch of collectors of all sort of arms and armour, and meet to show off our new aquisitions or renovations and discuss related subjects.
Tonight I will be giving a talk on the English Longbow. I should have posted something ages ago, but at least I remembered today.

Hi David,

I envy you chaps! This site is a great source for communication and research among collectors, but it would be great to be able to get together with fellow enthusiasts on a regular basis! On another note I was wondering if any from amongst your group is knowledgeable in regards to British militaria of the Revolutionary War period. The reason I am asking is that I have a leather gorget featuring what appears to be the royal cipher interlaced and reversed in brass. I have been told that the gorget was an example of an adaptation of the traditional brass or silver gorget as a result of combat conditions in the colonies during the French & Indian War and Revolution. In reaction to the need for better camouflage and targeting of officers I have read that some officers in ranger battalions and in Loyalist regiments might have used such devices, but have yet to find much literature supporting this idea, or additional examples besides my own. The feedback i have received on this site is great, but I would really like to obtain additional opinions that could lead me in the right direction, and possibly even help me nail down a particular group that used such gorgets.

Thanks!
Paul

Micke D · 5th March 2013, 02:11 PM

Thank you David, I will try the Library staff and see if they can help me!

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2013, 04:39 PM

I am envious as well! It would be great to just be able to visit the Royal Armouries, let alone have access to such a discussion group. I hope you will share some of the topic material here and perhaps some of the questions which come up here might afford some perspective which could enhance both groups.
Paul, I recall that gorget which led to some pretty intriguing research and discussion. I would really like to see more develop on the identification of that one as well!

David R · 7th March 2013, 12:13 AM

Hiya Paul, regarding your gorget I would suggest enquiring of the National Army Museum in London, as that seems more a uniform question than weaponry. However if you post a pic I can show it to P.S.J. a friend of mine who has an almost encyclopeadic knowledge of 18th and 19thC British Uniform, and see what he comes up with.
Re the group, I am very aware of how lucky I am both in the locality of the Museum and the existance of such a group of collectors.

PClemente · 7th March 2013, 11:48 PM

Hi David,
I will certainly take your advice regarding the National Army Museum. I am posting some photos of the gorget in question.
A number of years ago I was able to trade with a dealer in the UK for this gorget pattern that I had never seen before. Instead of the usual brass or silver gorget, this example was made of leather and bears a royal cypher in brass. Research led me to believe that the piece might be an example of a gorget pattern adapted to warfare in the colonies during the French & Indian War, by colonial ranger companies such as Rogers Rangers, or a pattern worn by certain Loyalist troops during the Revolution who were trying to avoid being targeted as officers. The insignia appears to be a cipher reversed and interlaced. Further research led me to believe that the cypher might be the royal cypher of King George II or III " reversed and interlaced " which was a device used by the First Royal Regiment of Foot which fought with distinction in the colonies during the French & Indian War. The possibilities regarding the gorget are intriguing and I would love to know who might have used such a gorget and if my conclusions (maybe wishful thinking) might be correct.

Thanks for any help and insight!
Regards,
Paul

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2013, 07:59 PM

Paul, as I recall in our discussions on this intriguing gorget you did some pretty impressive research already. It is truly puzzling that more information on these is not available in uniforms and accoutrements of such distinct units such as Rogers Rangers, who were the forerunners of later distinguished units such as Berdans Sharpshooters, the Rangers, and Green Berets. I am extremely proud that I had a great grandfather in Berdans (2nd U.S. Sharpshooters); an uncle in Darbys Rangers (4th); and a son in law formerly Rangers, 82nd Airborne, then 4th Infantry Iraq and Afghanistan (returning this week, his son just enlisted in Marines).

It is wonderful to have items such as this to enhance our knowledge and understanding of the history of these distinguished units.

PClemente · 9th March 2013, 12:25 AM

Hi Jim,

Thanks - I am constantly seeking to educate myself in regards to militaria and military history, and the gorget is certainly intriguing.
Your observation regarding the lack of material on such accoutrements as used by the famous Ranger companies is part of what fuels my search for additional information. Ideally I would like some concrete evidence to support any possible conclusions regarding the gorget. It might be a incredibly rare gorget attributable to a famed Ranger company, or something else entirely. The fact that there is not specific mention of such adaptations or other examples around increases my desire to continue research.
Your family's history of military service is something to be proud of. As a teacher I continually stress to my students that while we often focus on famous Americans as we learn about our nation's history, that the true heroes are those that are willing to give their lives for us and our great nation.

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2013, 06:24 AM

Paul, thank you so much for the kind words. I remain as intrigued as ever on your gorget, and I added some of my recent research on it to the original thread so as to continue that as a developing resource for this important item.

All the best,
Jim

David R · 27th March 2013, 06:06 PM

Tomorrow is the 28th of March, last thursday of the month and the next RAM Group meeting, 19.30 in the RAM Library Leeds. Ian Bottomly, curator will be bringing in a original 16thC junior officers Lansknecht armour for us to look at. Meeting ends around 21.00.

David R · 29th March 2013, 06:55 PM

An interesting meeting last night. Mr B brought along one of his armours, and gave a very interesting talk on the 16thC German armour industry with reference to this particular armour. This was followed by a hands on session with the armour. Photo's below. Please pardon the poor quality, taken with my phone.
There were also some very interesting Japanese blades brought along by another member, including the blade of a very rare Kikuchi Yari 菊池槍 (very like a tanto or dagger but made for use as a spear) of the Momoyama period.
All in all, a rewarding evening out for all of us who were able to attend.

28th February 2013, 12:00 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	Royal Armouries Support Group Leeds. Just in case anyone is interested, I am a member of the Royal Armouries Support Group, we meet regularly on the last Thursday of every month, in the Library of the Royal Armouries Leeds, starting 19.30 and generaly ending about 21.00. We are a friendly bunch of collectors of all sort of arms and armour, and meet to show off our new aquisitions or renovations and discuss related subjects. Tonight I will be giving a talk on the English Longbow. I should have posted something ages ago, but at least I remembered today.

7th March 2013, 11:48 PM	#8
PClemente Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42	Hi David, I will certainly take your advice regarding the National Army Museum. I am posting some photos of the gorget in question. A number of years ago I was able to trade with a dealer in the UK for this gorget pattern that I had never seen before. Instead of the usual brass or silver gorget, this example was made of leather and bears a royal cypher in brass. Research led me to believe that the piece might be an example of a gorget pattern adapted to warfare in the colonies during the French & Indian War, by colonial ranger companies such as Rogers Rangers, or a pattern worn by certain Loyalist troops during the Revolution who were trying to avoid being targeted as officers. The insignia appears to be a cipher reversed and interlaced. Further research led me to believe that the cypher might be the royal cypher of King George II or III " reversed and interlaced " which was a device used by the First Royal Regiment of Foot which fought with distinction in the colonies during the French & Indian War. The possibilities regarding the gorget are intriguing and I would love to know who might have used such a gorget and if my conclusions (maybe wishful thinking) might be correct. Thanks for any help and insight! Regards, Paul Attached Images

29th March 2013, 06:55 PM	#13
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	An interesting meeting last night. Mr B brought along one of his armours, and gave a very interesting talk on the 16thC German armour industry with reference to this particular armour. This was followed by a hands on session with the armour. Photo's below. Please pardon the poor quality, taken with my phone. There were also some very interesting Japanese blades brought along by another member, including the blade of a very rare Kikuchi Yari 菊池槍 (very like a tanto or dagger but made for use as a spear) of the Momoyama period. All in all, a rewarding evening out for all of us who were able to attend. Attached Images

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1st March 2013, 06:47 AM	#2
Micke D Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 41	Hello David! Do you guys in the Royal Armouries Support Group have any special access to take photographs of things on display? The thing is that I need a few good photos of the bow pattern of one of the crossbows on display but when I was there to see it, a few years ago, it was moved to a Froissart exhibition and turned the other way around and impossible to get any photos of. Sadly it has returned to its display place, but still facing the wrong way. Mikael Dahlström, Stockholm LockbowSociety, Sweden

3rd March 2013, 11:02 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	We do get the occasional trip into the back rooms certainly. Your best bet though is to contact the Library at the Leeds Armoury, and ask if they have any stock photo's of the piece. All items in the collection have been photographed, from different angles, and these pictures kept on file for reference. You will generaly find the staff helpfull and happy to sort copies out for you. I will say though that with the cutbacks they are a bit undermanned and may take a little time to sort stuff out for you.

5th March 2013, 02:11 PM	#5
Micke D Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 41	Thank you David, I will try the Library staff and see if they can help me!

6th March 2013, 04:39 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,732	I am envious as well! It would be great to just be able to visit the Royal Armouries, let alone have access to such a discussion group. I hope you will share some of the topic material here and perhaps some of the questions which come up here might afford some perspective which could enhance both groups. Paul, I recall that gorget which led to some pretty intriguing research and discussion. I would really like to see more develop on the identification of that one as well!

7th March 2013, 12:13 AM	#7
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	Hiya Paul, regarding your gorget I would suggest enquiring of the National Army Museum in London, as that seems more a uniform question than weaponry. However if you post a pic I can show it to P.S.J. a friend of mine who has an almost encyclopeadic knowledge of 18th and 19thC British Uniform, and see what he comes up with. Re the group, I am very aware of how lucky I am both in the locality of the Museum and the existance of such a group of collectors.

8th March 2013, 07:59 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,732	Paul, as I recall in our discussions on this intriguing gorget you did some pretty impressive research already. It is truly puzzling that more information on these is not available in uniforms and accoutrements of such distinct units such as Rogers Rangers, who were the forerunners of later distinguished units such as Berdans Sharpshooters, the Rangers, and Green Berets. I am extremely proud that I had a great grandfather in Berdans (2nd U.S. Sharpshooters); an uncle in Darbys Rangers (4th); and a son in law formerly Rangers, 82nd Airborne, then 4th Infantry Iraq and Afghanistan (returning this week, his son just enlisted in Marines). It is wonderful to have items such as this to enhance our knowledge and understanding of the history of these distinguished units.

9th March 2013, 12:25 AM	#10
PClemente Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42	Hi Jim, Thanks - I am constantly seeking to educate myself in regards to militaria and military history, and the gorget is certainly intriguing. Your observation regarding the lack of material on such accoutrements as used by the famous Ranger companies is part of what fuels my search for additional information. Ideally I would like some concrete evidence to support any possible conclusions regarding the gorget. It might be a incredibly rare gorget attributable to a famed Ranger company, or something else entirely. The fact that there is not specific mention of such adaptations or other examples around increases my desire to continue research. Your family's history of military service is something to be proud of. As a teacher I continually stress to my students that while we often focus on famous Americans as we learn about our nation's history, that the true heroes are those that are willing to give their lives for us and our great nation.

9th March 2013, 06:24 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,732	Paul, thank you so much for the kind words. I remain as intrigued as ever on your gorget, and I added some of my recent research on it to the original thread so as to continue that as a developing resource for this important item. All the best, Jim

27th March 2013, 06:06 PM	#12
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	Tomorrow is the 28th of March, last thursday of the month and the next RAM Group meeting, 19.30 in the RAM Library Leeds. Ian Bottomly, curator will be bringing in a original 16thC junior officers Lansknecht armour for us to look at. Meeting ends around 21.00.