HELP WITH A LARGE YATAGHAN!

libra · 23rd July 2010, 07:32 PM

Hi everyone!

I bought recently this large yatagan,the blade is turkish ribbon,the grips are from ivory with silver.
The scabbard is from leather and the belt rings from iron.
The length is 87cm with the scabbard and 85cm without.
I want your opinion about the origin of it?
Can be European?Balkan?
I need your help!!

Thanks in advance for the help!

Aristeidis

TVV · 23rd July 2010, 10:16 PM

Gorgeous yataghan, thanks for posting. Those large bellied blades seem to be generally earlier, based on examples in Vienna and Venice museums, all described as trophies from the wars with the Ottomans.

This might be the case here - an Ottoman blade, captured and later given an new scabbard with European fittings.

Regards,
Teodor

ariel · 23rd July 2010, 10:51 PM

Pay attention to the rings: it was hanging, not stuck under the belt.

TVV · 23rd July 2010, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Pay attention to the rings: it was hanging, not stuck under the belt.

I saw that, and thought about Jim claiming that large yataghans like this were used as a cavalryw eapon, though I am not sure of the reference for this.

Again, it looks to me like someone fitted this yataghan with a scabbard to wear it like a hanger.

ariel · 24th July 2010, 01:39 AM

Elgood's book on Balkan weapons ( pp.150-151) shows yataghans with karabela or kilij handles, crossguards and suspension rings: they all belonged to personalities in the Greek Navy.

Rick · 24th July 2010, 01:43 AM

Outstanding blade profile; beautiful curves !

Similar profile can be seen in Gerome's painting Heads Of The Rebel Beys .

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2010, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I saw that, and thought about Jim claiming that large yataghans like this were used as a cavalryw eapon, though I am not sure of the reference for this.

Again, it looks to me like someone fitted this yataghan with a scabbard to wear it like a hanger.

Thanks Teodor for remembering my comments

These kinds of heavy deep bellied blades I believe were quite possibly used indeed as horsemans sabres in some of the Illyrian units . These were if I remember correctly French units of irregular troops from Balkan regions and often commanded by French officers around the turn of the century into early 19th. . I cannot recall details further but much of this was based on research on one of these swords which had a vestigial crossguard, cleft staghorn grip with large brass grip rivets like this...the blade was of this shape with a crowned cypher and ligature suggesting European noble family heraldry.
The blade seemed European made if I recall, and of this heavy deep bellied yataghan shape.

All best regards,
Jim

libra · 24th July 2010, 09:31 AM

Thank you all for your comments!
Here some photos from near distance of the blade and the handle!
I believe that the handle is Balkan in opposition with the scabbard whoever it shows European!

eftihis · 25th July 2010, 11:44 PM

Hi Aristeidi,

I believe this kind of "kopis like" blades are earlier than 19th century, i would say that i have seen some examples that are from the mid 18th century.
The type of hilt reminds me some balkan yataghans, for example resemples the one bellow that has a latin inscription on the blade witch propably associates with the place of origin. I posted in the past this dagger but we didnt find any clues.

eftihis · 25th July 2010, 11:56 PM

Regarding this blade's shape, i want to show an example, which i date arrount the mid 18th century.
I think it deserves a thread of their own, buy anyway, its blade resempleas a lot the one of yours and actuall the second has the same damascus steel sandwitch technique.
The grip though are of "karabela" type.
Therefore my opinion for your's is an 18th c blade with a hilt from the balkans and with a latter replacement scabbard

Dmitry · 26th July 2010, 12:06 AM

Eftihis, the writing on your blade reads RAINHA, which means a QUEEN in Portuguese. By the look of it, the blade appears to be a cut-down European sword blade. Judging by the montmorency shape of the blade, this would date it to ca.1770s-early decades of the 1800s. Just my $.02.

eftihis · 26th July 2010, 12:14 AM

Thanks Dmitry!
But there is also an "A" and a dot, just before the "Rainha".
can it be the initial of the first name and "Rainha" the surname? ( I do not think it belonged in the Queen herself!!!)

Dmitry · 26th July 2010, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Thanks Dmitry!
But there is also an "A" and a dot, just before the "Rainha".
can it be the initial of the first name and "Rainha" the surname? ( I do not think it belonged in the Queen herself!!!)

We don't know what was written before RAINHA, it probably was the full name of the Queen. If this was my sword, I would do an easy search on the Portuguese royalty, to see whether there was a period in the 1700s-early 1800s when a Queen alone ruled Portugal, sans the King.

eftihis · 26th July 2010, 12:49 AM

It certainly makes sence!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_o...al_family_tree
There are 2 Queens, Maria I, 1777-1816 and MAria II, 1826-1828.

Dmitry · 26th July 2010, 01:21 AM

Excellent!
My pesos would be on the first Maria since blade might be inscribed [MARI]A*RAINHA, and not MARIA II*RAINHA.

Rick · 26th July 2010, 01:38 AM

This forum never ceases to amaze me .

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Excellent!
My pesos would be on the first Maria since blade might be inscribed [MARI]A*RAINHA, and not MARIA II*RAINHA.

I would be inclined to agree with that Dmitry, as you have well observed the montmorency cross section on the blade, which was very popular in England at the end of the 18th century. In the early Napoleonic period, it has often been discussed that British swords were being supplied to Portugal, as there was of course the considerable action on the Peninsula in Spain.

These were extremely innovative times in the development of effective cavalry swords in Europe, particularly in England, where the first officially recognized cavalry patterns were the 1796 light and heavy types. It is ironic that the cavalry officer who was instrumental in developing these forms was killed leading a cavalry charge at Salamanca.

I have seen dramatic parabolic blades on British cavalry sabres which were of shamshir form, but with pipeback design; officers sabres with distinct yelman; and even officers sabres with yataghan type blades ( Ponsonby at Waterloo).

It is not surprising that Europe was also testing new concepts in the technology of the sword in these times, and the deep bellied blades I have mentioned from these units in Balkan regions were apparantly among them.

Dmitry · 26th July 2010, 04:56 PM

My pesetas say that this is not a British blade [although it could be. I've never seen one decorated with this script], but either Spanish, German, or Portuguese, for that matter. British swords in Portugal were from the early 1800s, by which time the montmorency style was gone from fashion with the British.
Judging by the shorter size of this yataghan, a maritime provenance would not be out of question. Hypothetically - a Portuguese merchantman or a naval vessel captured by the Mediterranean pirates, blade cut down and rehilted. Pure speculation on my part. Blade could come from a variety of sources, and never seen a drop of sea water. My €.02.

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

My pesetas say that this is not a British blade [although it could be. I've never seen one decorated with this script], but either Spanish, German, or Portuguese, for that matter. British swords in Portugal were from the early 1800s, by which time the montmorency style was gone from fashion with the British.
Judging by the shorter size of this yataghan, a maritime provenance would not be out of question. Hypothetically - a Portuguese merchantman or a naval vessel captured by the Mediterranean pirates, blade cut down and rehilted. Pure speculation on my part. Blade could come from a variety of sources, and never seen a drop of sea water. My €.02.

Excellent thoughts, and actually what I meant to note was the fashion of the time favoring the montmorency section, with British blades case in point. I have a Wooley & Deakin with this section which dates around 1803. Wooley of course used the style as early as his M1788 light cavalry sabres. With the advent of the M1796 styles and onward, the hollow ground blade section prevailed over the montmorency.

From what I can see of this blade, it does seem altered or reprofiled, and clearly though using a yataghan eared type hilt from the Balkans, is obviously not a 'yataghan'. The heavy blade seems to almost have somewhat the profile of a Khyber knife, and sends thought toward those regions in India in the north, where the Portuguese blades (firangi) often found reuse. While not actually profound earlier, the Ottoman influences still entered via trade in the ports that served the regions of the north. Could an Ottoman yataghan hilt have been mounted on a reprofiled Portuguese blade?

fernando · 4th December 2010, 07:34 PM

Hi Eftihis,
Can you tell the thread in which you posted the sword you show in post #9
... or post here a picture of the other side of the blade ?
The inscription is indeed Portuguese and within the traditional legend VIVA A RAINHA DE PORTUGAL, referring to Queen DONA MARIA I (1777-1799).
Sometimes you find half of the phrase in each side of the blade but, in this case, you might have DE PORTUGAL on the other side.

23rd July 2010, 07:32 PM	#1
libra Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GREECE Patras Posts: 40	HELP WITH A LARGE YATAGHAN! Hi everyone! I bought recently this large yatagan,the blade is turkish ribbon,the grips are from ivory with silver. The scabbard is from leather and the belt rings from iron. The length is 87cm with the scabbard and 85cm without. I want your opinion about the origin of it? Can be European?Balkan? I need your help!! Thanks in advance for the help! Aristeidis Attached Images

24th July 2010, 09:31 AM	#8
libra Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GREECE Patras Posts: 40	Thank you all for your comments! Here some photos from near distance of the blade and the handle! I believe that the handle is Balkan in opposition with the scabbard whoever it shows European! Attached Images

25th July 2010, 11:56 PM	#10
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Regarding the blade Regarding this blade's shape, i want to show an example, which i date arrount the mid 18th century. I think it deserves a thread of their own, buy anyway, its blade resempleas a lot the one of yours and actuall the second has the same damascus steel sandwitch technique. The grip though are of "karabela" type. Therefore my opinion for your's is an 18th c blade with a hilt from the balkans and with a latter replacement scabbard Attached Images

23rd July 2010, 10:16 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	Gorgeous yataghan, thanks for posting. Those large bellied blades seem to be generally earlier, based on examples in Vienna and Venice museums, all described as trophies from the wars with the Ottomans. This might be the case here - an Ottoman blade, captured and later given an new scabbard with European fittings. Regards, Teodor

23rd July 2010, 10:51 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Pay attention to the rings: it was hanging, not stuck under the belt.

24th July 2010, 01:39 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Elgood's book on Balkan weapons ( pp.150-151) shows yataghans with karabela or kilij handles, crossguards and suspension rings: they all belonged to personalities in the Greek Navy.

24th July 2010, 01:43 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Outstanding blade profile; beautiful curves ! Similar profile can be seen in Gerome's painting Heads Of The Rebel Beys .

25th July 2010, 11:44 PM	#9
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Hi Aristeidi, I believe this kind of "kopis like" blades are earlier than 19th century, i would say that i have seen some examples that are from the mid 18th century. The type of hilt reminds me some balkan yataghans, for example resemples the one bellow that has a latin inscription on the blade witch propably associates with the place of origin. I posted in the past this dagger but we didnt find any clues. Attached Images

26th July 2010, 12:06 AM	#11
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Eftihis, the writing on your blade reads RAINHA, which means a QUEEN in Portuguese. By the look of it, the blade appears to be a cut-down European sword blade. Judging by the montmorency shape of the blade, this would date it to ca.1770s-early decades of the 1800s. Just my $.02.

26th July 2010, 12:14 AM	#12
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Thanks Dmitry! But there is also an "A" and a dot, just before the "Rainha". can it be the initial of the first name and "Rainha" the surname? ( I do not think it belonged in the Queen herself!!!)

26th July 2010, 12:49 AM	#14
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	It certainly makes sence! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_o...al_family_tree There are 2 Queens, Maria I, 1777-1816 and MAria II, 1826-1828.

26th July 2010, 01:21 AM	#15
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Excellent! My pesos would be on the first Maria since blade might be inscribed [MARI]ARAINHA, and not MARIA IIRAINHA.

26th July 2010, 01:38 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	This forum never ceases to amaze me .

26th July 2010, 04:56 PM	#18
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	My pesetas say that this is not a British blade [although it could be. I've never seen one decorated with this script], but either Spanish, German, or Portuguese, for that matter. British swords in Portugal were from the early 1800s, by which time the montmorency style was gone from fashion with the British. Judging by the shorter size of this yataghan, a maritime provenance would not be out of question. Hypothetically - a Portuguese merchantman or a naval vessel captured by the Mediterranean pirates, blade cut down and rehilted. Pure speculation on my part. Blade could come from a variety of sources, and never seen a drop of sea water. My €.02.

4th December 2010, 07:34 PM	#20
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Hi Eftihis, Can you tell the thread in which you posted the sword you show in post #9 ... or post here a picture of the other side of the blade ? The inscription is indeed Portuguese and within the traditional legend VIVA A RAINHA DE PORTUGAL, referring to Queen DONA MARIA I (1777-1799). Sometimes you find half of the phrase in each side of the blade but, in this case, you might have DE PORTUGAL on the other side.