Polynesian war club (or maori?)

kronckew · 26th September 2014, 11:40 PM

or not? (billed as an antique polynesian war club)

looks suspiciously maori; like a wahaika without the normal backwards looking tiki. nicely decorated thong hole.`14.5 inches long.

Battara · 27th September 2014, 04:46 AM

I could be wrong but this strikes me as modern and not Maori.

VANDOO · 27th September 2014, 06:47 PM

I AGREE IT IS A MODERN INTERPRETATION OF A MAORI WAHAIKA WITH ATYPICAL DECORATION SIMILAR TO MAORI DESIGNS BUT NOT A OLD TRADITIONAL DESIGN. IT MAY HAVE BEEN CARVED IN NEW ZEALAND BY MAORI OR NOT?. THEY STILL CARVE THEM IN VARIOUS DEGREES OF QUALITY FOR THE TOURISTS AND PERHAPS ARTISTS MAKE SOME NEW ORIGINAL ART DESIGNS THERE. I HAVE EVEN SEEN SOME VERY NICE LOOKING ONES CAST FROM A PLASTIC RESIN FOR SALE. IT IS THE FIRST I HAVE SEEN LIKE IT ON EBAY SO HOPEFULLY WE WON'T BE SEEING A LOT MORE JUST LIKE IT ON EBAY WHICH IS ALWAYS A BAD SIGN.
IT LOOKS WELL CARVED AND APPEARS THAT A GOOD HARD WOOD WAS USED SO UNLESS ITS MADE FROM RESIN IT IS STILL A INTERESTING ART OBJECT.

kronckew · 27th September 2014, 07:38 PM

ah, well. have asked the vendor if they have any more info on where/when it came from. they might answer. looks like nice wood
anyway. i've seen a modern interpretation carved by someone in france that was on offer for a substantial price.

i noted during research that not all wahaika have a tiki, only 99.999%

didn't see any like this. maybe that's why they listed it as 'polynesian' rather than maori.

from what i can see of the prices, i can't afford a real antique one, so am limited to more modern 'vintage' productions.

kronckew · 29th September 2014, 08:38 AM

response from dealer was that it was bought at an auction from a private owner then re-sold to the current dealer. she indicated that she initially thought it was maori, but knew that the carving pattern may have placed it at another island, hence the generic 'polynesian' in the listing rather than 'maori'.

translation: lost provenance.

could have been carved by a little old lady in the shetlands for the Up Helly Aa!

native shetland islanders

kronckew · 30th September 2014, 03:40 PM

'club' thingy arrived today & is on it's way back to supplier.

when i unpacked it it was remarkably light. tinked it with my fingernail - it sounded like plastic. examining further, i could see in the detail near the lanyard hole where the mould hadn't filled fully. repacked it and sent it back.

luckily i'd ought it online with paypal & they will ensure i get a refund one way or another. dealer said her supplier told her he'd bought it at a bonham's sale so never looked closely.

shame, had a nice grain, sharp edge

i've since seen a couple of 'maori' clubs on ebay listed as 'vintage' that were duplicates of wood ones sold earlier this year, so i shall transfer my affections elsewhere for now.

'caveat emptor' works for dealers when buying as well as end users.

VANDOO · 30th September 2014, 04:42 PM

IT JUST GOES TO SHOW HOW LITTLE WE CAN TELL FROM A PICTURE IT SURE LOOKED LIKE A GOOD PIECE OF WOOD. THE OTHER TWO FORMS OF PLASTIC MAORI CLUBS I HANDLED LOOKED GOOD EVEN IN HAND BUT THE WEIGHT AND CUTS CARVED LOOKED A LITTLE FUNNY. WHOEVER THE NEW ZEALAND COMPANY IS WHO MAKES THEM DOES A VERY GOOD JOB.THEY ARE THE BEST RESIN CLUBS ON THE MARKET.

IF ITS A GOOD REPLICA OF ONE OF THE VERY BEST OLD MAORI CLUBS AT THE RIGHT PRICE FOR WHAT IT IS I FIND THEM WORTH HAVING.
THE ONE YOU HAD WAS A DIFFERENT PATTERN THAN I HAVE SEEN AND LIKELY NOT A OLD DESIGN. THE DESIGN WAS RECOGNIZABLE AND APPROPRIATE FOR MAORI AS IT DEPICTED A FERN THE 3 UNFURLED TENDRILS GOING UP THE BLADE.

kronckew · 1st October 2014, 11:26 AM

if it had been weighty and a lot cheaper i would have kept it. i saw a nice wahaika cast in aluminum auctioning on a nz site that i wanted to buy, sadly you needed a nz address to bid.

kronckew · 8th October 2014, 08:28 AM

had an update from the dealer i got it from. she, at my suggestion, did the red-hot pin test. it of course failed. she refunded me immediately. she said she was going to contact the dealer she got it from. she had a reply:

Quote:

I spoke with the dealer who sold the club to me. He was even more shocked than I was and will be taking the club back from me. I thought he said he had bought it at a Bonhams auction but in fact it was Sotherby's! So it seems that even the most reputable experts can be fooled which makes me feel a bit less of a twit! He will of course be taking the matter up with them. It just shows how clever these counterfeiters have become and we need more than our wits about us when we buy!

we all need to have a slave riding in the back of our chariot who tells us periodically "Memento mori" ("remember thou art but mortal").

Tim Simmons · 8th October 2014, 04:56 PM

Unless there is some creative thinking here, this situation with Bonham's and Sotherby's is outrageous. I can only imagine that this has come about by a provincial agent. Surely not the London head quarters?

kronckew · 8th October 2014, 05:07 PM

i only have what she told me she was told. no real evidence. thankfully my money was returned promptly and without any arguement.

could be her dealer was the cad & was making up the prestigious provenance. i hope i hear more. getting interesting. could have been a junior appraiser. maybe heads will roll....

been a while since we had someone in the tower here...

26th September 2014, 11:40 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	Polynesian war club (or maori?) or not? (billed as an antique polynesian war club) looks suspiciously maori; like a wahaika without the normal backwards looking tiki. nicely decorated thong hole.`14.5 inches long. Attached Images

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27th September 2014, 04:46 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I could be wrong but this strikes me as modern and not Maori.

27th September 2014, 06:47 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE IT IS A MODERN INTERPRETATION OF A MAORI WAHAIKA WITH ATYPICAL DECORATION SIMILAR TO MAORI DESIGNS BUT NOT A OLD TRADITIONAL DESIGN. IT MAY HAVE BEEN CARVED IN NEW ZEALAND BY MAORI OR NOT?. THEY STILL CARVE THEM IN VARIOUS DEGREES OF QUALITY FOR THE TOURISTS AND PERHAPS ARTISTS MAKE SOME NEW ORIGINAL ART DESIGNS THERE. I HAVE EVEN SEEN SOME VERY NICE LOOKING ONES CAST FROM A PLASTIC RESIN FOR SALE. IT IS THE FIRST I HAVE SEEN LIKE IT ON EBAY SO HOPEFULLY WE WON'T BE SEEING A LOT MORE JUST LIKE IT ON EBAY WHICH IS ALWAYS A BAD SIGN. IT LOOKS WELL CARVED AND APPEARS THAT A GOOD HARD WOOD WAS USED SO UNLESS ITS MADE FROM RESIN IT IS STILL A INTERESTING ART OBJECT.

27th September 2014, 07:38 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	ah, well. have asked the vendor if they have any more info on where/when it came from. they might answer. looks like nice wood anyway. i've seen a modern interpretation carved by someone in france that was on offer for a substantial price. i noted during research that not all wahaika have a tiki, only 99.999% didn't see any like this. maybe that's why they listed it as 'polynesian' rather than maori. from what i can see of the prices, i can't afford a real antique one, so am limited to more modern 'vintage' productions.

29th September 2014, 08:38 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	response from dealer was that it was bought at an auction from a private owner then re-sold to the current dealer. she indicated that she initially thought it was maori, but knew that the carving pattern may have placed it at another island, hence the generic 'polynesian' in the listing rather than 'maori'. translation: lost provenance. could have been carved by a little old lady in the shetlands for the Up Helly Aa! native shetland islanders

30th September 2014, 03:40 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	'club' thingy arrived today & is on it's way back to supplier. when i unpacked it it was remarkably light. tinked it with my fingernail - it sounded like plastic. examining further, i could see in the detail near the lanyard hole where the mould hadn't filled fully. repacked it and sent it back. luckily i'd ought it online with paypal & they will ensure i get a refund one way or another. dealer said her supplier told her he'd bought it at a bonham's sale so never looked closely. shame, had a nice grain, sharp edge i've since seen a couple of 'maori' clubs on ebay listed as 'vintage' that were duplicates of wood ones sold earlier this year, so i shall transfer my affections elsewhere for now. 'caveat emptor' works for dealers when buying as well as end users.

30th September 2014, 04:42 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT JUST GOES TO SHOW HOW LITTLE WE CAN TELL FROM A PICTURE IT SURE LOOKED LIKE A GOOD PIECE OF WOOD. THE OTHER TWO FORMS OF PLASTIC MAORI CLUBS I HANDLED LOOKED GOOD EVEN IN HAND BUT THE WEIGHT AND CUTS CARVED LOOKED A LITTLE FUNNY. WHOEVER THE NEW ZEALAND COMPANY IS WHO MAKES THEM DOES A VERY GOOD JOB.THEY ARE THE BEST RESIN CLUBS ON THE MARKET. IF ITS A GOOD REPLICA OF ONE OF THE VERY BEST OLD MAORI CLUBS AT THE RIGHT PRICE FOR WHAT IT IS I FIND THEM WORTH HAVING. THE ONE YOU HAD WAS A DIFFERENT PATTERN THAN I HAVE SEEN AND LIKELY NOT A OLD DESIGN. THE DESIGN WAS RECOGNIZABLE AND APPROPRIATE FOR MAORI AS IT DEPICTED A FERN THE 3 UNFURLED TENDRILS GOING UP THE BLADE.

1st October 2014, 11:26 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	if it had been weighty and a lot cheaper i would have kept it. i saw a nice wahaika cast in aluminum auctioning on a nz site that i wanted to buy, sadly you needed a nz address to bid.

8th October 2014, 04:56 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Unless there is some creative thinking here, this situation with Bonham's and Sotherby's is outrageous. I can only imagine that this has come about by a provincial agent. Surely not the London head quarters?

8th October 2014, 05:07 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	i only have what she told me she was told. no real evidence. thankfully my money was returned promptly and without any arguement. could be her dealer was the cad & was making up the prestigious provenance. i hope i hear more. getting interesting. could have been a junior appraiser. maybe heads will roll.... been a while since we had someone in the tower here...