Bugis keris

[A. G. Maisey]

Anthony, I think Rick & David would like to put this discussion to sleep, and bearing in mind the history of dispute that keris discussion has generated in the past, I think I can understand their reasons, but that said, I do believe that you have hit on a major reason for the paucity of activity in this keris discussion forum, and that is a lack of questions.

Questions are generated by curiosity, and in my opinion curiosity about the keris is generated not by books about keris, but rather by thoughts that can be aroused by books and other sources of information about the social & historical background that the keris carries as baggage.

Without questions there can be no answers, and perhaps many people do not have questions simply because they lack the knowledge to generate those questions.

I do not believe that there is anything faulty in even the slightest degree with the format & conduct of this discussion group, it is not broken, so really there is nothing for our moderators to fix.

To my mind if there is a problem, it is just that perhaps all of the easy questions have already been answered and nobody has yet gathered sufficient understanding to permit them to ask the hard questions. I doubt that there is much that can be done about that except to encourage an ongoing learning process amongst our participants.

Somebody commented I believe, that:-

"there is no new information coming from this forum because most contributors have exhausted their resources"

from my own perspective I would most gently suggest that in at least one case this is very far from true, however, for information to be presented, the questions need to be asked, and to me it seems that the foundation knowledge required to ask serious questions is very, very thinly scattered.

It can be very difficult to frame a question in a way that will give you what you want. I have sometimes spent days working on a question --- or maybe even weeks --- answers can be often be spontaneous, but questions need thought & research, especially if one does not know much about the relevant field.

There is nothing at all wrong with this Forum in my opinion, the lack of questions might be because of a lack of interest from participants, or it might be because of a lack of adequate knowledge to permit the framing of questions.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To my mind if there is a problem, it is just that perhaps all of the easy questions have already been answered and nobody has yet gathered sufficient understanding to permit them to ask the hard questions. I doubt that there is much that can be done about that except to encourage an ongoing learning process amongst our participants.

Amen Alan. I have had my basic questions answered or have been given the tools to answer many of my own inquires. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this process. I believe there is a certain due diligence required to ask a question. I would not want to waste anyone's valuable time. I.e. is there already an answer on file if one spends the time to find it. There is so much in the archives. I believe most of what is left for me to find in the English language on keris culture is here on file. Minus the elusive Groneman of course I feel when we join this group we ask many questions. Often the answers are patiently given in references to old threads. After a few of these are given often I would imagine many members get the hint and take the onus of self education before posting. I will say looking through the archives I have had the honor to watch people and the overall knowledge base to grow, and opinions to change and then mature. This process does make for more inciteful questions, though harder to answer.

For me the next step is to improve my Bahasa Indonesia reading comprehension so to explore more obscure nooks and crannies. Then one day I hope to travel. My big fear would be in the 10 years it would take for me to ask a mature question will there be a loss of knowledge that makes it unanswerable?

Today's question for me before I read this thread was the difference in iconography and meaning between a kala mask and a kirtmuktha. Both ideas reinforcing the value of the moments given us and personal growth, but sometimes slow, steady change makes for dull reading.

My apologies to Paul for continuing the hi-jack of the thread instead of focusing on the ferric metals and abstract elephants, birds, and snakes.

[Interested Party]

As a means of reparations to Paul I thought I would post this blade I had not intended to post before. The question is how does this blade relate to the original one? Jean said: "IMO this blade does not originate from Sulawesi nor Sumatra/ Malaysia but rather from Sumbawa or Lombok because of the following features:
. Lines on the front side of the ganja.
. Twin lambe gajah
. Protruding kembang kacang (not recessed)
. Long, straight, and thin sogokan
. Peculiar greneng style on the wadidang" How does this one compare? The overall profile is similar, but it is different in almost all the smaller details Jean mentioned.

[Interested Party]

Sorry, all. Those were not entirely the pictures I meant to post. Here is one that shows the whole blade on the screen at once. I did not show the pesi because it is wrapped and has locked the selut on and I find that distracting for our topic.

Thanks for your patience.
IP

PS On a side note is there a way to edit photos after you accidently hit submit rather than preview?

[A. G. Maisey]

IP:- "Today's question for me before I read this thread was the difference in iconography and meaning between a kala mask and a kirtmuktha. Both ideas reinforcing the value of the moments given us and personal growth, but sometimes slow, steady change makes for dull reading."

"mukha" means "face", even in Bahasa Indonesia the word "muka" means "face", in Javanese literary form "mukha" means face

"kirti" means "glorious" in Sanscrit, and in Modern Balinese it means "religious merit"

"Kirtimukha" is a demon follower of Siwa

"kala" means "time" in Sanscrit and in BI & Jav., it is also the name of the son of Siwa & Uma; Kala was a ravenous demon, who tried to eat his younger brother Kumara (Ie, Dewa Kumara, Rare Kumara). Kalamukha can be understood as Kirtimukha

Kumara hid and escaped being eaten by his older brother, the demonic Kala, thus Kumara became the God Protector of children.

"Bhoma" in Bali, is the son of Wisnu & Dewi Basundari (Hyang Pertiwi), and is the Son of the Earth, in Bali he equates to the Javanese "Kala". As the son of Water and Earth he can be understood as growth and abundance, but if understood as Kala then he becomes time and time equates to Death, "Yama" is judge of the dead, Kala's other name is "Yama".

When we add the word 'mukha' we are really talking about an artistic motif that in form of Kirtimukha spread across all of Indianised Maritime SE Asia. It usually surmounts doorways and the entry that it surmounts can provide the prompt to how the motif needs to be understood.

So, if we look at Kirtimukha - Kalamukha - Bhoma we are looking at similar artistic motifs that are related but not exactly the same, and their placement and geographic location can result in varying understandings.

All of the above has precious little to do with keris, all this curiosity about what one motif or form might represent is simply curiosity for a name to hang on something, a classification, part of the "Name Game" UNLESS we go to the trouble of trying to understand how the people who own the culture of these motifs & forms understand them.

For somebody who just wants to collect exotic weapons, the whole thing just becomes too hard & too confusing, and in my opinion it is one of the major reasons why interest in the keris is often so very superficial.

The photos are of a gateway and a close-up of the motif above it, with what most people with a slight knowledge of Indonesian art would call a "Kala Mask". The gateway is in Bali, in the grounds of the Den Pasar Museum.

How do we understand this motif above a doorway that leads to nowhere and that is purely artistic expression?

We sometimes see this same motif used as the closure of the Javanese, Balinese and Madura topengan pendok. How should we understand it in this application?

In short, if we are members of an entirely foreign society & culture to the one that owns this motif, we cannot understand it, indeed, investigation will reveal that within the cultures that do own this motif it can be understood in varying ways and only a limited number of people will be in possession of the knowledge needed to understand the motif.

For example, this Kirtimukha we have been talking about eventually turned into the Garuda, and the wandering foliage of ancient Indian art eventually was represented as serpents, thus when we see a combination of Garuda with foliage or Garuda with serpents, we see an expression of the Good together with the Bad and by extension Positive elements overcoming Negative.

As I just wrote, the whole thing becomes too difficult, unless we expand our study from just one blossom, ie, the Keris, to the entire garden, ie, the culture & society.

Not many people with a primary interest in edged weaponry are prepared to do that.

[kai]

See, not all easy questions have been raised!

PS On a side note is there a way to edit photos after you accidently hit submit rather than preview?

1. Go back to the post within the 24h limit for editing
2. Hit the "Manage attachment" button
3. Edit/delete attachments at whim
4. Save edited post

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

See, not all easy questions have been raised!


1. Go back to the post within the 24h limit for editing
2. Hit the "Manage attachment" button
3. Edit/delete attachments at whim
4. Save edited post

Well played Kai, thanks!