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Old 26th August 2022, 08:17 PM   #1
SidJ
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Default Keris for identification

Hi
Any help on the age type pamor and quality of this keris pls?
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Old 28th August 2022, 09:55 AM   #2
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I cannot say for sure which pamor this is, one of the may variation of palm or fern or betel nut leaves. Others will certainly be better in identifying this.

However this blade looks very well made and beautiful but I don’t think it started its life together with the rest of the kris, I think it is a very modern blade.
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Old 28th August 2022, 10:55 AM   #3
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Thanks
I am advised this one is made by the late Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. In my view the dress is original to the blade.
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Old 28th August 2022, 10:57 AM   #4
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Pamor Mayang Mekar
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Old 28th August 2022, 10:59 AM   #5
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Yes, I thought it may be , as I wrote, a pamor representing a leaf.
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Old 28th August 2022, 02:44 PM   #6
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I find very strange that an Empu Jeno keris is paired with this not nice sarong
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Old 28th August 2022, 04:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
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Thanks
I am advised this one is made by the late Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. In my view the dress is original to the blade.
His keris is not cheap i think.
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Old 28th August 2022, 05:01 PM   #8
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I find very strange that an Empu Jeno keris is paired with this not nice sarong
Ladrang is broken, pendok not dress well, mendak is a low quality, deder is standard......why?
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Old 28th August 2022, 05:45 PM   #9
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Yes there are damages to the dress but this is not uncommon as they are fragile and this has suffered in a Western setting of commercial trade that did not appreciate its fragility.The dress itself is not of a low standard however. The sarong is delicately carved from a high grade timber resembling tiger stripes. The pendok shows crisp detailing. The black coating resembles black enamel. It is a perfect fit. The mendak is set with either cut glass or stone with facets. It seems more than reasonable to me.
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Old 29th August 2022, 12:21 AM   #10
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Thanks
I am advised this one is made by the late Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. In my view the dress is original to the blade.
This seems like nice keris. I am not sure why your advisors were so sure this is Empu Djeno's work though. I am not saying it is not, but i don't really see the evidence that it is. I have been led to understand that an empu's "signature" can sometimes be read in the greneng of a keris, more specifically in the way he forms his ron dha. It is not easy to find clear examples of Djeno keris that some details of the greneng, but here is one i found that did have documentation certifying it as a Djeno keris (and yes, such things can be faked).
I did also find another keris that is identified as a Djeno keris with a similar pamor to yours. Unfortunately there are no details of this keris that i can find.
Regarding the rest of the ensemble, this looks like it was once fairly decent dress. The detail work on the pendok and the black enamel look well done. The mendak is not bargain basement, but it does not appear to be high end either. I doubt they are real stones. This dress does seem to have been abused quite a bit if we consider it is something that is not really more than 25-30 years old. Frankly i don't think we can blame the condition of the dress on it being held in a Western setting. Anyone who would possess a Djeno keris would have obviously been aware of what they had and treated it more kindly. It's not the kind of keris that is likely to turn up at the local flea market or gun show and people who bought keris from Djeno paid top dollar for it and would more often than not keep the certificate of authenticity with the keris if they were to sell it and use it's creators name as a selling point.
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Old 29th August 2022, 02:44 AM   #11
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Thanks David
Could you elaborate on what actual evidence you are looking for that would lead you be satisfied this is by the said Empu? That might be useful in shedding more light on the matter.
Thanks in advance
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Old 29th August 2022, 04:47 AM   #12
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Thanks David
Could you elaborate on what actual evidence you are looking for that would lead you be satisfied this is by the said Empu? That might be useful in shedding more light on the matter.
Thanks in advance
If you know how to reach out to his son who is now a popular empu himself, he can certify whether this keris is forged by his father or not otherwise.
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Old 29th August 2022, 10:14 AM   #13
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Default Mayang = flower of betel nut

Mayang Mekar is not referring to a type of leaves.
Mayang is the name of betel nut flower, Mekar is blossom.
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Pamor Mayang Mekar
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Old 29th August 2022, 10:55 AM   #14
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I am afraid, even Empu not always give us the consistency in their work we expect from them, and that includes Greneng. Overall form of it will be recognisable but parts of it, even Dha, can vary.

This looks like a quite late work by Djeno, where the biggest part if not all work already was done by his apprentices. In Western art, since around 1880, we distinguish between Rubens, Rubens and workshop, and workshop of Rubens in paintings. I doubt we will see this level in Kerisology, and I also doubt its expected, useful and necessary.

I am afraid to say, that even Keris by Djeno can turn up in a gun show or flea market. That all depends on heirs, and things can go very quickly. Value is a very fleeting and unstable category.
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Old 29th August 2022, 11:53 AM   #15
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Here are two Keris from the same dealer, one of them with a certificate supposedly signed by Sungkowo (Greneng of it posted by David), another one with a certificate supposedly signed by Djeno himself.

I find the comparison between these two Keris, including their Greneng, quite insightful.
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Old 29th August 2022, 01:09 PM   #16
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That is a very useful contribution Gustav, I tried to do something similar myself, but I have not had the time to look for suitable photos.

Apart from the enormous difference in the way these two men have executed the blade characteristics, the thing that really sticks out like a pimple on a pumpkin is that although both are working in the Jogja "school", neither man has worked in Jogja style. Djeno comes closer than Sungkowo, but neither keris is really recognizable as Jogja.
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Old 29th August 2022, 01:19 PM   #17
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Alan, Sungkowo's(?) certificate states the Keris is work of Djeno from 2001.

From the three Keris in this thread, the only one which really resembles Djeno's or better Ngentho-Entho work to me is the initial one.
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Old 29th August 2022, 02:39 PM   #18
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Saying a work “resembles” the work if Empu Djeno is not the same as having provenance that the work actual is Djeno. I agree with Anthony that the only way to establish this as a Djeno Keris with any validity would be to have it assessed by his son. That would be necessary i suppose if you ever wanted to achieve top dollar with a resale of this keris. But it is obviously a nice keris so that would be of less concern for me personally since i have never really approached my collection as an investment or accumulation of wealth. My main concern with this blade would be removing the rust. LOL! ;-)
Yes Gustav, I am sure anything is possible in terms of where a keris can end up, though we donÂ’t really have anymore than the possibility of a single generationÂ’s passing to content with here. I am not sure how Sid acquired this keris, but it seems it did not come to him as a known Djeno piece. Sure, it is possible a keris of this level could be sold by an uninterested heir to a dealer who had no idea what he was buying and tossed it around until it got this beat up. That does seem less likely though.
And yes, I was aware that there are true Djeno keris as well as work done mostly by his apprentices. This doesn’t mean Djeno himself was necessarily inconsistent in his greneng execution. But it can certainly explain why documented “Djeno” keris might appear that way.
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Old 29th August 2022, 03:01 PM   #19
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David, I have handled a couple of genuine Djeno's Keris and own one. I can always be wrong, but in picture this definitely looks like Ngentho-Entho work to me and like a late work by Djeno.

I used the word "resembles", because that's the best word I could find to be able to include the other two Keris in my sentence.

Last edited by Gustav; 29th August 2022 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 29th August 2022, 04:45 PM   #20
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Saying a work “resembles” the work if Empu Djeno is not the same as having provenance that the work actual is Djeno. I agree with Anthony that the only way to establish this as a Djeno Keris with any validity would be to have it assessed by his son. That would be necessary i suppose if you ever wanted to achieve top dollar with a resale of this keris. But it is obviously a nice keris so that would be of less concern for me personally since i have never really approached my collection as an investment or accumulation of wealth. My main concern with this blade would be removing the rust. LOL! ;-)
Yes Gustav, I am sure anything is possible in terms of where a keris can end up, though we donÂ’t really have anymore than the possibility of a single generationÂ’s passing to content with here. I am not sure how Sid acquired this keris, but it seems it did not come to him as a known Djeno piece. Sure, it is possible a keris of this level could be sold by an uninterested heir to a dealer who had no idea what he was buying and tossed it around until it got this beat up. That does seem less likely though.
And yes, I was aware that there are true Djeno keris as well as work done mostly by his apprentices. This doesn’t mean Djeno himself was necessarily inconsistent in his greneng execution. But it can certainly explain why documented “Djeno” keris might appear that way.
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Old 29th August 2022, 10:58 PM   #21
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Sorry Gustav, I misunderstood what you wrote, in truth, I just skimmed your text and looked at the images. I have handled quite a few Djeno keris, and less keris by Sungkowo, but looking at the images you posted what I saw was a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris.

In fact what I still see is a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris, in spite of the certificate.

Your wording of text in post #15 is I believe as it should be:- "supposedly".


There is something else I should mention too, not that it makes any real difference. Pak Sungkowo is Pak Djeno's nephew, not his son.

Yes, the word "anak" can be understood as "child" , but it can be understood in many other ways as well, it does not necessarily mean that if we refer to somebody as "anak saya" (my child) that "anak" is necessarily my own offspring.

Pak Parman (Empu Suparman) would refer to me as his "anak", but it was perfectly obvious to all who could see that there was no way I could be the blood child of Pak Parman.
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Old 29th August 2022, 11:22 PM   #22
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Alan, given that you recognize the keris Gustav presented as a Djeno keris & a Sungkowo keris, what would your opinion be about the possibility that either man created Sid's keris that opened this thread.
What i see looking at these three keris is three very distinctive ways of rendering ron dha. Is this a significant and/or useful observance?
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Old 30th August 2022, 12:09 AM   #23
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David, I would prefer to reserve my opinion in respect of Sid's keris, there is nothing I wish to add to what is already very clear from what this thread contains.

Yes, the way in which the rondha has been executed in these three keris does vary very considerably, but there are multiple other differences as well in the work that has gone into these keris.

What Gustav has said about the variation in the characteristic workmanship of a single maker is true, I made a small number of keris and the way in which I cut the rondha in each of them is different, but in my case this was intentional, I made keris not to follow the profession of Pande Keris, but rather to better understand keris and how to look at and evaluate them.

Somebody who makes keris for a living has different objectives, if he wants his work to be valued he strives to make it recogniseable as his work. This objective can change if a piece of work is not turning out as he would like it to, in which case he will deliberately vary small details so that it is not instantly recogniseable as his own work.

Then we have the problem that some very clever pande keris will deliberately copy the work of other makers, this has been going on for as long as keris have been made, I believe.

In my opinion everything that we can see in the images presented in this thread is well worth taking note of.
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