17thC relic Rapier saved?

Atlantia · 8th June 2010, 07:14 PM

I'll let the pictures speak for themselves.
Opinions are welcomed of course. As would be info and dating

Looks early to me.
Blade seems like it might clean up to a reasonable level.

fernando · 8th June 2010, 07:41 PM

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it?

A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things

Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift

.
Fernando

Atlantia · 8th June 2010, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it?

A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things

Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift

.
Fernando

Hello Buddy.
Yes its mine, bought it today.
Don't have access to my limited books at the moment
But I don't have 'Normans'

Where to start on the conservation/cleaning?

fernando · 8th June 2010, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Where to start on the conservation/cleaning?...

No where

.
Maybe (maybe) some inocuous conservation stuff; something innocent like olive oil?
Let's see other member's opinion

.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2010, 10:36 PM

Thank you Fernando!!!

Nicely done Gene! This appears to be closest to hilt #55, which is a cuphilt rapier with alternating quillons probably Continental, N. European c. 1625-40
("The Rapier & the Smallsword 1460-1820", A.V.B.Norman, N.Y. 1980).
It appears that similar hilts were also produced in Toledo about the same period notably by Tomas Aiala. There is great similarity in hilts in these periods following popular fashion, so often it is hard to categorize with definition.

I would proceed with great care and reservation in conserving this piece, and most important is stabilizing any active rust. The patination is pretty solid and trying to work into it would not only compromise the integrity of the sword, but its value, potential damage notwithstanding.

celtan · 8th June 2010, 10:39 PM

Je concur avec Ferdinand...

... I can accept it as a gift!

: )

Yep, early 17th C. The pommel seems intended to really balance the weapon, thus its the Real McCoy.

Olive Oil works, yet will darken metal.

Yo

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it?

A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things

Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift

.
Fernando

Matchlock · 9th June 2010, 02:53 AM

Hi Gene,

This is a German type so-called Pappenheimer Rapier, Thirty Years War, ca. 1630; there are examples known that are dated 1632 on the blade.

A very similiar in perfect condition and retaining its original sheath was sold from the famous Henk L. Visser collection, Bonhams, London, 27 Nov 2007, and now is in the collection of a friend of mine. Please see attachments.

When cleaning the very delicate blade please note that there must be a fine central ridge visible all the way down almost to the tip.
For a start, please use olive oil together with 240 grain sandpaper and work your way down to 600 or 800 grains for the final finish, always with a thick layer of olive oil between the iron and the paper.

Please also note that the pommel and hilt were originally blackened; I would therefore suggest to confine your cleaning action to the blade and just blacken the hilt and pommel by tannin which you should get in any drug store; leave it to dry for two or three days, then put a thick layer of olive oil on both the blackened parts and the cleaned blade and let the whole dry for ca. 6 weeks. You will then get a best possibly recovered and patinated surface, and a conserved one as well; the dried olive oil will stay there and prevent the fingers from getting thru onto the iron surface.

I, and I am sure I am not the only one here, would love to see some pics of the result!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 9th June 2010, 03:07 AM

Some 17th century portraits of the famous Gottfried Heinrich Graf von Pappenheim (Central Franconia, Bavaria) after whom these rapiers that he ordered for his troup are named.

In the first portrait you can see such a rapier at his side.
m

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 03:31 AM

pappenheimer! cool!!

Dmitry · 18th August 2010, 03:57 AM

For what it's worth, I wouldn't call this sword a Pappenheimer. The hilt is quite English in style and construction, at least to these green eyes.

8th June 2010, 07:14 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	17thC relic Rapier saved? I'll let the pictures speak for themselves. Opinions are welcomed of course. As would be info and dating Looks early to me. Blade seems like it might clean up to a reasonable level.

9th June 2010, 02:53 AM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Gene, This is a German type so-called Pappenheimer Rapier, Thirty Years War, ca. 1630; there are examples known that are dated 1632 on the blade. A very similiar in perfect condition and retaining its original sheath was sold from the famous Henk L. Visser collection, Bonhams, London, 27 Nov 2007, and now is in the collection of a friend of mine. Please see attachments. When cleaning the very delicate blade please note that there must be a fine central ridge visible all the way down almost to the tip. For a start, please use olive oil together with 240 grain sandpaper and work your way down to 600 or 800 grains for the final finish, always with a thick layer of olive oil between the iron and the paper. Please also note that the pommel and hilt were originally blackened; I would therefore suggest to confine your cleaning action to the blade and just blacken the hilt and pommel by tannin which you should get in any drug store; leave it to dry for two or three days, then put a thick layer of olive oil on both the blackened parts and the cleaned blade and let the whole dry for ca. 6 weeks. You will then get a best possibly recovered and patinated surface, and a conserved one as well; the dried olive oil will stay there and prevent the fingers from getting thru onto the iron surface. I, and I am sure I am not the only one here, would love to see some pics of the result! Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 9th June 2010 at 10:11 PM.

8th June 2010, 07:41 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Gene, Lovely relic; is it yours? Don't you have Norman's book? Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it? A hilt not distant to #84? Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century? As if i knew something about these things Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift . Fernando

8th June 2010, 10:36 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,748	Thank you Fernando!!! Nicely done Gene! This appears to be closest to hilt #55, which is a cuphilt rapier with alternating quillons probably Continental, N. European c. 1625-40 ("The Rapier & the Smallsword 1460-1820", A.V.B.Norman, N.Y. 1980). It appears that similar hilts were also produced in Toledo about the same period notably by Tomas Aiala. There is great similarity in hilts in these periods following popular fashion, so often it is hard to categorize with definition. I would proceed with great care and reservation in conserving this piece, and most important is stabilizing any active rust. The patination is pretty solid and trying to work into it would not only compromise the integrity of the sword, but its value, potential damage notwithstanding.

9th June 2010, 03:07 AM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Some 17th century portraits of the famous Gottfried Heinrich Graf von Pappenheim (Central Franconia, Bavaria) after whom these rapiers that he ordered for his troup are named. In the first portrait you can see such a rapier at his side. m Attached Images

9th June 2010, 03:31 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,748	pappenheimer! cool!!

18th August 2010, 03:57 AM	#10
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	For what it's worth, I wouldn't call this sword a Pappenheimer. The hilt is quite English in style and construction, at least to these green eyes.