How do you classify Philippines swords

Antonio Cejunior · 8th November 2005, 02:25 AM

Greetings everyone,

I was wondering about the following.
If you would have to establish a methodology for organizing Philippines Edged Weapons into a comprehensible system, how would you do? In other words:

a. How much main variation is there in the weapons according to regions?

1. Are Moro weapons different from other regions?

2. What are the main entirely native weapons variations? Keris/kris, Kampilan, Bolo, Barung? What else?

3. Have the meeting with the Spanish resulted in specific sword shapes or they are more of a result of casual hybridation?

Thank you all for any enlightment

Battara · 8th November 2005, 05:39 AM

Antonio, since I'm one of the few up at this time of night right now (over here anyway) I'll start and then be corrected by the others.

Many of the weapons vary according to the different tribe, even the Moro tribes. One exception is the kris which was used among all the Moro tribes with variation in details (some lumad tribes like the T'boli and Bagobo were influence by the Moros and developed their own kris versions). Another exception is the barong that was used with variations among the Tausug of Jolo Island, the Samal, those Moros of Palawan, Tawi Tawi, and Basilan (not sure about the Yakan).

The Spanish did introduce some amount of influence in the north in some dagger and bolo styles especially in hilt styles, i.e. a knuckle guard. This does not include the Igorot head hunting tribes in the north.

With the Moro, the Spanish influence seems to have been more in the area of Moro armour with use of chain maille, plates, and especially the helmet.

Other "purly native" pieces appear to be the talibon (Cebu), the tenegre (Panay), the different head axes (Igorot tribes like the Kalinga, Bontoc, Ifugao, etc), the Bagobo bolo, the T'boli bolo, and bolos of the Tagakolo, among others.

Similar things can be said about shields.

Besides being part Filipino, the variation is another reason why I have collected PI/Moro arms and armour (not legs though

).

Hopes this helps as a synoptic start.

Antonio Cejunior · 8th November 2005, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Antonio, since I'm one of the few up at this time of night right now (over here anyway) I'll start and then be corrected by the others.

(snip)...(snip)
Besides being part Filipino, the variation is another reason why I have collected PI/Moro arms and armour (not legs though

).

Hopes this helps as a synoptic start.

Thanks Battara

I actually look forward for you all to enlighten the beginner that I am

Bless you

ariel · 8th November 2005, 02:03 PM

Me too.
I have always been very confused by the terminology used by the Philippino weapons collectors: tenegre, sansibar etc. These names do not appear in any source I have, including Cato and I have no idea what, guys, you are talking about. I would be very grateful if one(or many!) of you would just provide a basic tutorial: post a series of pictures with names, defining characteristics, origin.

Bill · 8th November 2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

With the Moro, the Spanish influence seems to have been more in the area of Moro armour with use of chain maille, plates, and especially the helmet.

.

Moro armor could be a good study in its self. I original thought that the Moro were copying the Spanish, the influence certainly is there. Armor and weapons develop together. The Bugis armor has simularities to the Moro armor. It developed because of blowgun warfare and was around at the time the Portuguese arrived. Sometimes it seems, that some of our members consider the Philippines to be isolated. If any Philippine group was aware of arms and armor, before the Spanish; it would be the Moro as they were great sea going people. Closer to home, likely the more the influence. Pre-Spanish, the Moro were under Brunei domination and my guess is that much of thier warfare was local or Brunei directed. Although disputed by other forum members, I believe the Spanish attempt for control caused the "uniformity" of Moro arm and armor. Look forward to hear others thought on the subject.

zelbone · 8th November 2005, 06:21 PM

This is an interesting question which I'm sure many are interested in seeing answered. It's a basic question, but without a simple answer. Asking this question is like opening Pandora's Box. The answer would be complex and will invite more questions. Even having access to many of these swords and being able to visit the areas where they are made...and still used...has brought about even more questions. Labantayo and I are still working on a survey of just Visayan weapons, and the closer we get to finding answers, even more questions are posed....sometimes the answers are more questions. Ariel, you are not alone.

One of the reasons for confusion is the lack of written material on Philippine swords. Sure we have Cato's book, but that deals mainly with Moro weapons. But what about the rest of the Philippines? Not much material is available in journals, books, etc. And the reason for that is because most people (outside the Moro realm and maybe the Lumad tribes) take their swords for granted. It's just an everyday tool that may be drawn in self defense. And to the average filipino, not interesting enough to write about.

The biggest obstacle though is the linguistic variations throughout the Philippines. Tagalog may be the "national" language, but not in Cebu, Samar, Negros, Mindanao, etc. Sure everyone might understand Tagalog or "Pilipino," but most people will speak their native dialect whether it's Ilongo, Kapapangan, Ilocano, Cebuano, Aklanon, Mandaya, Tausug, etc. And it's this dialectal differences that really adds to the confusion. One sword in one region may be called another name in a different region....but it would be the exact same sword. In another recent thread I said to call a particular sword a "sundang" just to be safe since the term sundang is used everywhere. It may not mean the same thing between say the Tagalogs and the Warays, but they would both understand that it's a long bladed weapon. Calling a sword a paricular name is almost pointless unless you mention it among people with the same dialect and familiarity of that particular sword. Because a different linguistic group may call that same particular sword a completely different name. And if you know Filipinos, they would argue that point...and arguments are sometimes settled with drawn blades

. Calling any sword a bolo would be the safest thing. Even the National Museum in Manila has every sword labeled as an "Espada" whether it's a talibong, kris, or kampilan. The Davao museum has all it's swords labelled "bolo."

So you could see the confusion with terminology. For instance, the Pulahan sword of Samar. It was known as a talibon for awhile here, then it was more properly called a garab. Both terms are used for the same sword, but garab has been more formally accepted here on this forum. However, in Eastern Samar where the sword comes from, the Waray use the term garab for a curved bladed sword...and even the bolo used for harvesting rice. They call the same sword with a straight blade a sundang. I have an old Pulahan "talibon", I was calling it a garab, but it has a straighter blade. Should I now call it a sundang?

And then you come to the endless varieties of swords itself. The variety of blade shapes and forms is confusing itself. And when is it a tool and not a weapon....is there any difference. There's a fine line there. A bolo used in the field to chop sugar cane can easily be turned on someone, and now it becomes a sword. There are subtle differences where an ordinary field bolo used for harvesting produce and clearing jungle becomes a purpose built weapon...used for harvesting lives. Furthermore, are the blade forms develeoped for the way the sword is used...or vice versa? The chicken vs. egg theory. A Filipino Martial Artist would ponder this question and it will help determine what region the sword is from.

So there are no easy answers.

But to help you out, Antonio, here's my suggestion.

Regionalize, the swords to the major regional areas: Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanao. From there, regionalize it down further. Define what major linguistic or tribal groups are within those sub-regions and and discuss those particular groups swords.

That's a start....

I'll elaborate more later if you would like....this was just my disclaimer.

Good luck!

LabanTayo · 8th November 2005, 09:05 PM

My thoughts exactly Zel!!!

Antonio Cejunior · 9th November 2005, 12:50 AM

I spent 20 minutes replying to you and suddenly hit the wrong key and all disappeared.

I'll have to find time to get back at this.
Thank you meantime.
Best regards,

8th November 2005, 02:25 AM	#1
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	How do you classify Philippines swords Greetings everyone, I was wondering about the following. If you would have to establish a methodology for organizing Philippines Edged Weapons into a comprehensible system, how would you do? In other words: a. How much main variation is there in the weapons according to regions? 1. Are Moro weapons different from other regions? 2. What are the main entirely native weapons variations? Keris/kris, Kampilan, Bolo, Barung? What else? 3. Have the meeting with the Spanish resulted in specific sword shapes or they are more of a result of casual hybridation? Thank you all for any enlightment

9th November 2005, 12:50 AM	#8
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Awww I spent 20 minutes replying to you and suddenly hit the wrong key and all disappeared. I'll have to find time to get back at this. Thank you meantime. Best regards,

8th November 2005, 05:39 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Antonio, since I'm one of the few up at this time of night right now (over here anyway) I'll start and then be corrected by the others. Many of the weapons vary according to the different tribe, even the Moro tribes. One exception is the kris which was used among all the Moro tribes with variation in details (some lumad tribes like the T'boli and Bagobo were influence by the Moros and developed their own kris versions). Another exception is the barong that was used with variations among the Tausug of Jolo Island, the Samal, those Moros of Palawan, Tawi Tawi, and Basilan (not sure about the Yakan). The Spanish did introduce some amount of influence in the north in some dagger and bolo styles especially in hilt styles, i.e. a knuckle guard. This does not include the Igorot head hunting tribes in the north. With the Moro, the Spanish influence seems to have been more in the area of Moro armour with use of chain maille, plates, and especially the helmet. Other "purly native" pieces appear to be the talibon (Cebu), the tenegre (Panay), the different head axes (Igorot tribes like the Kalinga, Bontoc, Ifugao, etc), the Bagobo bolo, the T'boli bolo, and bolos of the Tagakolo, among others. Similar things can be said about shields. Besides being part Filipino, the variation is another reason why I have collected PI/Moro arms and armour (not legs though ). Hopes this helps as a synoptic start.

8th November 2005, 02:03 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Me too. I have always been very confused by the terminology used by the Philippino weapons collectors: tenegre, sansibar etc. These names do not appear in any source I have, including Cato and I have no idea what, guys, you are talking about. I would be very grateful if one(or many!) of you would just provide a basic tutorial: post a series of pictures with names, defining characteristics, origin.

8th November 2005, 06:21 PM	#6
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	This is an interesting question which I'm sure many are interested in seeing answered. It's a basic question, but without a simple answer. Asking this question is like opening Pandora's Box. The answer would be complex and will invite more questions. Even having access to many of these swords and being able to visit the areas where they are made...and still used...has brought about even more questions. Labantayo and I are still working on a survey of just Visayan weapons, and the closer we get to finding answers, even more questions are posed....sometimes the answers are more questions. Ariel, you are not alone. One of the reasons for confusion is the lack of written material on Philippine swords. Sure we have Cato's book, but that deals mainly with Moro weapons. But what about the rest of the Philippines? Not much material is available in journals, books, etc. And the reason for that is because most people (outside the Moro realm and maybe the Lumad tribes) take their swords for granted. It's just an everyday tool that may be drawn in self defense. And to the average filipino, not interesting enough to write about. The biggest obstacle though is the linguistic variations throughout the Philippines. Tagalog may be the "national" language, but not in Cebu, Samar, Negros, Mindanao, etc. Sure everyone might understand Tagalog or "Pilipino," but most people will speak their native dialect whether it's Ilongo, Kapapangan, Ilocano, Cebuano, Aklanon, Mandaya, Tausug, etc. And it's this dialectal differences that really adds to the confusion. One sword in one region may be called another name in a different region....but it would be the exact same sword. In another recent thread I said to call a particular sword a "sundang" just to be safe since the term sundang is used everywhere. It may not mean the same thing between say the Tagalogs and the Warays, but they would both understand that it's a long bladed weapon. Calling a sword a paricular name is almost pointless unless you mention it among people with the same dialect and familiarity of that particular sword. Because a different linguistic group may call that same particular sword a completely different name. And if you know Filipinos, they would argue that point...and arguments are sometimes settled with drawn blades . Calling any sword a bolo would be the safest thing. Even the National Museum in Manila has every sword labeled as an "Espada" whether it's a talibong, kris, or kampilan. The Davao museum has all it's swords labelled "bolo." So you could see the confusion with terminology. For instance, the Pulahan sword of Samar. It was known as a talibon for awhile here, then it was more properly called a garab. Both terms are used for the same sword, but garab has been more formally accepted here on this forum. However, in Eastern Samar where the sword comes from, the Waray use the term garab for a curved bladed sword...and even the bolo used for harvesting rice. They call the same sword with a straight blade a sundang. I have an old Pulahan "talibon", I was calling it a garab, but it has a straighter blade. Should I now call it a sundang? And then you come to the endless varieties of swords itself. The variety of blade shapes and forms is confusing itself. And when is it a tool and not a weapon....is there any difference. There's a fine line there. A bolo used in the field to chop sugar cane can easily be turned on someone, and now it becomes a sword. There are subtle differences where an ordinary field bolo used for harvesting produce and clearing jungle becomes a purpose built weapon...used for harvesting lives. Furthermore, are the blade forms develeoped for the way the sword is used...or vice versa? The chicken vs. egg theory. A Filipino Martial Artist would ponder this question and it will help determine what region the sword is from. So there are no easy answers. But to help you out, Antonio, here's my suggestion. Regionalize, the swords to the major regional areas: Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanao. From there, regionalize it down further. Define what major linguistic or tribal groups are within those sub-regions and and discuss those particular groups swords. That's a start.... I'll elaborate more later if you would like....this was just my disclaimer. Good luck!

8th November 2005, 09:05 PM	#7
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	My thoughts exactly Zel!!!