Pala Kilic Wootz? with European Hilt.

Norman McCormick · 13th May 2012, 03:39 PM

Hi All,
New aquisition, blade length 29 3/4 inches 35 1/2 inches overall. I think an Ottoman/Turkish blade mounted with a European hilt possibly Austrian or perhaps Swiss and with a purpose built metal European style scabbard with slot to upper part and suspension ring to accommodate the curve. Do you think this is a trophy remounted or a European style mount commissioned by an Ottoman officer? As you can see there is Arabic script on the blade, presumably Turkish but maybe not, a translation by our resident team is much looked forward to. The blade itself has a pattern and I would be grateful to the experts in this field as to how I should go about bringing out the best that the blade may have to offer. I look forward to all opinions and thoughts.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I will endeavour to get better photographs soon.

Norman McCormick · 13th May 2012, 03:43 PM

Hi,
Here is a similar item from the Higgins tagged as Austrian C1845. The basket hilt is not exactly the same and the blade maybe of European manufacture influenced by the Ottoman style. I have also seen a British General officers Mamaluke hilted sword with an Ottoman Kilic blade.
Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 13th May 2012, 04:02 PM

A very fine sword indeed Norman. Did you have to remortgage the farm for that one??

Looks pattern welded and not wootz to me.
Be careful with any etching as you of course also have western military type etched designs.

A very, VERY light etch with warm vinegar might show more, but be careful.

ariel · 13th May 2012, 04:11 PM

Third pic shows some pseudo-arabic gibberish. I am sure the blade is not eastern of whatever origin: european imitation. Very nice and unusual sword. Would be interesting to now whether it was a regulation pattern, place of manufacture etc.

A.alnakkas · 13th May 2012, 04:17 PM

Nice one. I really like the blend! The inscription at the top says "bashir almumeneen" (bring glad tidings to the believers. Quranic verse) the bottom one says "hibir/hisir (?) albab" (I think its either a name or a sufi reference albab means door)

What about the latin inscription? I cant read it... Maybe some date is there?

Norman McCormick · 13th May 2012, 04:24 PM

Hi,
Many thanks for your comments and help re the translation, I'm a bit lost as to the Latin inscription, which text do you mean?
My Regards,
Norman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Nice one. I really like the blend! The inscription at the top says "bashir almumeneen" (bring glad tidings to the believers. Quranic verse) the bottom one says "hibir/hisir (?) albab" (I think its either a name or a sufi reference albab means door)

What about the latin inscription? I cant read it... Maybe some date is there?

Norman McCormick · 13th May 2012, 04:13 PM

Hi Gene,
Many thanks for your thoughts. I thought about it being a European blade but the patterned steel, the Arabic script and there is a hint of the etching having been gilded, small amount of gold where the hilt touches the blade, made me think it was Turkish. This is out of my comfort zone so I'm 'stabbing' in the dark. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Yeah it wasn't cheap.

Norman McCormick · 13th May 2012, 04:16 PM

Hi Ariel,
Thanks for the reply. Would a European blade sport 'star and crescent'
other than the earlier style sun, moon and stars motifs?
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 14th May 2012, 07:55 PM

Hi,
Hilt on Austrian sabre C1850. Photo from sabres.cz site.

David R · 14th May 2012, 09:02 PM

I have seen genuine Oriental blades in British hilts, I have seen genuine Turkish barrels mounted as Austrian hunting rifles. Prior to the 1830s and even later, Eastern blades and barrels were often seen as superior to the Western product. I see this as a genuine Turkish blade , mounted at the time as an Austrian service sword, perhaps via another country like Greece or Montenegro.

A.alnakkas · 14th May 2012, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I have seen genuine Oriental blades in British hilts, I have seen genuine Turkish barrels mounted as Austrian hunting rifles. Prior to the 1830s and even later, Eastern blades and barrels were often seen as superior to the Western product. I see this as a genuine Turkish blade , mounted at the time as an Austrian service sword, perhaps via another country like Greece or Montenegro.

Hmm, I would have fully agreed if the etching wasnt present. The fact that the Arabic inscription is etched in european style makes me think its a european production. Koftgari seems to be the way to go for turkish arms so doubt they'd use such etching.

A.alnakkas · 14th May 2012, 10:51 PM

I remember seeing a shamshir here in Kuwait, it had a european clauberg like blade but the fittings were typical Persian style. The crossguard had Quranic inscription. The blade was very interesting, it was etched in european style, at the ricasso it says "constantinople" and through out the blade maybe about 3 inchs shy from the tip its fully etched with motifs, upon viewing it from certain sides it reflects the Aya sofia which was really nice, I never seen a blade with such a visual trick. The other motifs I think are of old constantinople, european style archticture and walls, maybe some heraldic symbols.. I thought the blade looks alot like a clauberg trade blade because it had 2 shallow fullers and on the top fuller there are 3 deep fullers. There was no clauberg knight stamp.

I somehow was silly enough not to take a picture of it, maybe because I was busy admiring the wootz shamshir which I have bought. When I visited later it was sold to a Saudi, maybe if I meet him I would ask to take pictures.

Norman McCormick · 7th June 2012, 04:50 PM

Hi,
I e-mailed the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Museum of Military History) in Vienna regarding the origins of this sword, the reply is below. I would certainly agree that the blade and hilt were not made originally for one another and the explanation that Mr Ilming gives is one that seems reasonable and obviously not unknown. If anyone else has a view, contradictory or otherwise, I would be pleased to hear from you.
Regards to All,
Norman.

Dear Sir!

I think the blade of this sword will have belonged to a different one, before it was mounted with the hilt it has now.
The blade was perhaps part of a booty in the wars between Austria and the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century, and handed down in the family of the person who captured it, until it was used by one of his descendants in the combination you have now purchased.

This happened quite often within the nobility, where almost every male member of those families in every generation served as an officer in the army. By this way such “hereditary blades” were preserved over the centuries.

I hope, this response is of some help for you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again, if you have some further questions.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ing. Mag. Thomas Ilming
Leiter Referat WaTe (Waffen und Technik)
Heeresgeschichtliches Museum
A-1030 Wien, Arsenal, Objekt 1
Tel.: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1060320
Mobil: +43 / (0)664/ 8876 3850
Fax: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1017707

13th May 2012, 03:39 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Pala Kilic Wootz? with European Hilt. Hi All, New aquisition, blade length 29 3/4 inches 35 1/2 inches overall. I think an Ottoman/Turkish blade mounted with a European hilt possibly Austrian or perhaps Swiss and with a purpose built metal European style scabbard with slot to upper part and suspension ring to accommodate the curve. Do you think this is a trophy remounted or a European style mount commissioned by an Ottoman officer? As you can see there is Arabic script on the blade, presumably Turkish but maybe not, a translation by our resident team is much looked forward to. The blade itself has a pattern and I would be grateful to the experts in this field as to how I should go about bringing out the best that the blade may have to offer. I look forward to all opinions and thoughts. Regards, Norman. P.S. I will endeavour to get better photographs soon. Attached Images

13th May 2012, 03:43 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Here is a similar item from the Higgins tagged as Austrian C1845. The basket hilt is not exactly the same and the blade maybe of European manufacture influenced by the Ottoman style. I have also seen a British General officers Mamaluke hilted sword with an Ottoman Kilic blade. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

14th May 2012, 07:55 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Hilt on Austrian sabre C1850. Photo from sabres.cz site. Attached Images

13th May 2012, 04:02 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	A very fine sword indeed Norman. Did you have to remortgage the farm for that one?? Looks pattern welded and not wootz to me. Be careful with any etching as you of course also have western military type etched designs. A very, VERY light etch with warm vinegar might show more, but be careful.

13th May 2012, 04:11 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Third pic shows some pseudo-arabic gibberish. I am sure the blade is not eastern of whatever origin: european imitation. Very nice and unusual sword. Would be interesting to now whether it was a regulation pattern, place of manufacture etc.

13th May 2012, 04:17 PM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Nice one. I really like the blend! The inscription at the top says "bashir almumeneen" (bring glad tidings to the believers. Quranic verse) the bottom one says "hibir/hisir (?) albab" (I think its either a name or a sufi reference albab means door) What about the latin inscription? I cant read it... Maybe some date is there?

13th May 2012, 04:13 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Gene, Many thanks for your thoughts. I thought about it being a European blade but the patterned steel, the Arabic script and there is a hint of the etching having been gilded, small amount of gold where the hilt touches the blade, made me think it was Turkish. This is out of my comfort zone so I'm 'stabbing' in the dark. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. P.S. Yeah it wasn't cheap.

13th May 2012, 04:16 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Ariel, Thanks for the reply. Would a European blade sport 'star and crescent' other than the earlier style sun, moon and stars motifs? My Regards, Norman.

14th May 2012, 09:02 PM	#10
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,052	I have seen genuine Oriental blades in British hilts, I have seen genuine Turkish barrels mounted as Austrian hunting rifles. Prior to the 1830s and even later, Eastern blades and barrels were often seen as superior to the Western product. I see this as a genuine Turkish blade , mounted at the time as an Austrian service sword, perhaps via another country like Greece or Montenegro.

14th May 2012, 10:51 PM	#12
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	I remember seeing a shamshir here in Kuwait, it had a european clauberg like blade but the fittings were typical Persian style. The crossguard had Quranic inscription. The blade was very interesting, it was etched in european style, at the ricasso it says "constantinople" and through out the blade maybe about 3 inchs shy from the tip its fully etched with motifs, upon viewing it from certain sides it reflects the Aya sofia which was really nice, I never seen a blade with such a visual trick. The other motifs I think are of old constantinople, european style archticture and walls, maybe some heraldic symbols.. I thought the blade looks alot like a clauberg trade blade because it had 2 shallow fullers and on the top fuller there are 3 deep fullers. There was no clauberg knight stamp. I somehow was silly enough not to take a picture of it, maybe because I was busy admiring the wootz shamshir which I have bought. When I visited later it was sold to a Saudi, maybe if I meet him I would ask to take pictures.

7th June 2012, 04:50 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, I e-mailed the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Museum of Military History) in Vienna regarding the origins of this sword, the reply is below. I would certainly agree that the blade and hilt were not made originally for one another and the explanation that Mr Ilming gives is one that seems reasonable and obviously not unknown. If anyone else has a view, contradictory or otherwise, I would be pleased to hear from you. Regards to All, Norman. Dear Sir! I think the blade of this sword will have belonged to a different one, before it was mounted with the hilt it has now. The blade was perhaps part of a booty in the wars between Austria and the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century, and handed down in the family of the person who captured it, until it was used by one of his descendants in the combination you have now purchased. This happened quite often within the nobility, where almost every male member of those families in every generation served as an officer in the army. By this way such “hereditary blades” were preserved over the centuries. I hope, this response is of some help for you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again, if you have some further questions. Mit freundlichen Grüßen Ing. Mag. Thomas Ilming Leiter Referat WaTe (Waffen und Technik) Heeresgeschichtliches Museum A-1030 Wien, Arsenal, Objekt 1 Tel.: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1060320 Mobil: +43 / (0)664/ 8876 3850 Fax: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1017707