Joseph Ebert gun early 18th century, made in Czechoslovakia

tscheidt · 21st August 2021, 07:34 PM

First, I am super excited to be here. I have been looking at how helpful everyone is to each other here, and any arguments are just fact based and intellectual instead of what I find on Reddit:-).

I have desperately tried to figure this gun and carvings out but I just can't crack it....it is also possible I am 100% the wrong direction etc.......But any help I would appreciate.

APRAG on banner, in Hindi it is something old. The direct English translation is Standpat, to rebel authority.

LAKSHMIBAI is likely the person carved in an authority position?

MR built into the hilt? Marital Race was the only initials matching in found anywhere.

Joseph Ebert? There is a famous German gun maker from this time with the same last name and nearly identical work.

Why would a Rebellion supporting gun have English translations and English letters, with an unknown German name.

The dragon symbol?

The two rebels tied to a post? Or are they British Raj maybe?

Cross in the circle with arrow through it on the trigger guard. The whole carving in a mystery.

Maybe it all has an easy explanation but I have not been able to find it and I have fallen down many many rabbit holes:-). I also have a turkish gun I will post later but there are a few almost identical ones here in a forum and that is how I ended up here:-)

Bob A · 22nd August 2021, 12:49 AM

While, sadly, I can't help with your question, it would be of interest to see photos of the other side of the pistol, and a top, bottom and front view as well. (That might also be of some use to those here who might be in a better position to help with identification.)

tscheidt · 22nd August 2021, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

While, sadly, I can't help with your question, it would be of interest to see photos of the other side of the pistol, and a top, bottom and front view as well. (That might also be of some use to those here who might be in a better position to help with identification.)

I'll do that right away. I had to shrink them quite a bit so I'll figure out and upload shortly I had it all on Google drive at 108 mp so it's been a challenge to shrink 🙂

tscheidt · 22nd August 2021, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tscheidt

I'll do that right away. I had to shrink them quite a bit so I'll figure out and upload shortly I had it all on Google drive at 108 mp so it's been a challenge to shrink 🙂

Here are more detailed pics. Sorry for the original post. Hope someone can help.

.

fernando · 31st August 2021, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tscheidt

Here are more detailed pics. Sorry for the original post. Hope someone can help..

Pictures upright now, Larry

-

fernando · 31st August 2021, 03:28 PM

Are you guys considering that, once this gun was originally a flintlock, the hammer would not have been that of the spitfire dog but something different ? And, for the same reason, even the Ebert name would have not originally been there, as it would be senselessly hidden under the frizzen spring ?
And so was part of the front decoration ?
I know all this is foolish but ... don't tie me to the whipping post

.

.

Peter Hudson · 22nd August 2021, 06:57 PM

Ebert Gun . Please seehttps://lsbauctions.com/954/beautiful-pair-of-p-ebert-sohne-suhl-pistols-50-caliber-percussion-target-pistols-antique/ for a pair of target pistols of P.Ebert Your exhibit could be an Ebert...and I noted looking at the web quite a variety of work by that gunmaker. I agree that a useful photo shot may be over the top of the breach where many gun smiths placed their names etc. I have never fired a 50 cal piston but imagine quite a recoil !!
Peter Hudson

tscheidt · 22nd August 2021, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Ebert Gun . Please seehttps://lsbauctions.com/954/beautiful-pair-of-p-ebert-sohne-suhl-pistols-50-caliber-percussion-target-pistols-antique/ for a pair of target pistols of P.Ebert Your exhibit could be an Ebert...and I noted looking at the web quite a variety of work by that gunmaker. I agree that a useful photo shot may be over the top of the breach where many gun smiths placed their names etc. I have never fired a 50 cal piston but imagine quite a recoil !!
Peter Hudson

Thanks Pete. There are so many striking similarities but then so many questions?

Who is Joseph. MR initials etc. New pics have greater detail. I screwed up my photo sizing and it made copies instead of shrinking .

Not sure if drive posts are allowed when not main thread but here.. if you don't want to wait for the admin approval of my pics. Also, I purchased these at the auction. They are not still for sale.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...wv01WLxtOlWDRh

Peter Hudson · 23rd August 2021, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tscheidt

Thanks Pete. There are so many striking similarities but then so many questions?

Who is Joseph. MR initials etc. New pics have greater detail. I screwed up my photo sizing and it made copies instead of shrinking .

Not sure if drive posts are allowed when not main thread but here.. if you don't want to wait for the admin approval of my pics. Also, I purchased these at the auction. They are not still for sale.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...wv01WLxtOlWDRh

Hello tscheidt, Meanwhile I have a possible maker see https://www.olympiaauctions.com/sale.../view-lot/291/ Note that this item 291 is sold thus is ok to look at for forum purposes...There you can see the maker German ... KEHLNER etc etc and with PRAG inscribed.
Regards Peter Hudson

tscheidt · 22nd August 2021, 07:27 PM

In these pics you can see the name etc.

tscheidt · 24th August 2021, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tscheidt

In these pics you can see the name etc.

Can I somehow change the title to
Joseph Ebert gun early 18th century, made in Czechoslovakia.

tscheidt · 22nd August 2021, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

While, sadly, I can't help with your question, it would be of interest to see photos of the other side of the pistol, and a top, bottom and front view as well. (That might also be of some use to those here who might be in a better position to help with identification.)

As soon as I have editing permission I can fix it. Uploaded a bunch more.

Will M · 23rd August 2021, 03:54 PM

The pistol appears to have a depiction of Britannia and forward of the trigger guard is the typical British pineapple design. If not British made then was made for the British market.

tscheidt · 23rd August 2021, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

The pistol appears to have a depiction of Britannia and forward of the trigger guard is the typical British pineapple design. If not British made then was made for the British market.

That's where I got lost. I originally thought it was a depiction of England in a power position over India etc. But the Aprag sent me to the rebellion. However, if the Aprag means where it was made?.....Then that makes the questions of who are the initials? Etc.

fernando · 31st August 2021, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tscheidt

... MR built into the hilt? Marital Race was the only initials matching in found anywhere...

Larry, i would have no doubt that those are the initials of the gun owner's name ... which picture you forgot to upload

.

.

fernando · 31st August 2021, 05:53 PM

Can you show us a picture of the hammer in the full-cock position ?

tscheidt · 31st August 2021, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Can you show us a picture of the hammer in the full-cock position ?

On it. I'll take some closer up pics as well.. love the help....makes me think there is hope to solve this mystery 😀

tscheidt · 31st August 2021, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Can you show us a picture of the hammer in the full-cock position ?

Let me know if you need diff ones

corrado26 · 1st September 2021, 07:30 AM

1. The style of the pistol is not the style in use during the living times of Joseph Ebert 1710-1740. This pistol is certainly made far later.

2. The signature of J. Ebert at the front part of the lockplate indicates that this was made after the transfer of the pistol from flintlock to percussion. Would it have been made earlier, the signature, as Fernado already said, would have been hidden by the battery springs and senseless.

3. The style of the letters of the gunmaker's name and the adress "A PRAG" is totally different, so I assume that these have been made in different times by different makers.

4. So I think that the flintlockpistol has been made by an unknown gunmaker of the city of Prag and an also unknown gunmaker J. Ebert transferred it to percussion in the 1830/40s. Don't forget that the Neue Stöckel is not the bible and has lots of gaps. During the last 40 years I myself found more than 200 gunmakers worldwide not mentioned in this opus.

fernando · 1st September 2021, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

... So I think that the flintlockpistol has been made by an unknown gunmaker of the city of Prag and an also unknown gunmaker J. Ebert transferred it to percussion in the 1830/40s...

Amen

.

tscheidt · 2nd September 2021, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

1. The style of the pistol is not the style in use during the living times of Joseph Ebert 1710-1740. This pistol is certainly made far later.

2. The signature of J. Ebert at the front part of the lockplate indicates that this was made after the transfer of the pistol from flintlock to percussion. Would it have been made earlier, the signature, as Fernado already said, would have been hidden by the battery springs and senseless.

3. The style of the letters of the gunmaker's name and the adress "A PRAG" is totally different, so I assume that these have been made in different times by different makers.

4. So I think that the flintlockpistol has been made by an unknown gunmaker of the city of Prag and an also unknown gunmaker J. Ebert transferred it to percussion in the 1830/40s. Don't forget that the Neue Stöckel is not the bible and has lots of gaps. During the last 40 years I myself found more than 200 gunmakers worldwide not mentioned in this opus.

Looking closer around the signature on both sides the letters are greatly worn down where the cut off parts were. To the point of barely carved on one side. Not sure if relevant but thought I'd mention.

I recieved a flinlock gun of possibly Turkish origin at same auction as well as a German police bayonet. Do I post those here too, if I hope to learn more?

Purchased a new magnifier (my eyes I no longer fully trust ☺️) and plan to go over this gun again.

fernando · 2nd September 2021, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tscheidt

... I recieved a flinlock gun of possibly Turkish origin at same auction as well as a German police bayonet. Do I post those here too, if I hope to learn more? ...

Sure thing Larry; if you take into account the scope of this Euro forum; no modern stuff, like bayonets from the 20th century.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23414

Quote:

Originally Posted by tscheidt

... Purchased a new magnifier (my eyes I no longer fully trust ☺️) and plan to go over this gun again.

You have already shown us multiple pictures of this pistol in similar angles

.

tscheidt · 19th September 2021, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

1. The style of the pistol is not the style in use during the living times of Joseph Ebert 1710-1740. This pistol is certainly made far later.

2. The signature of J. Ebert at the front part of the lockplate indicates that this was made after the transfer of the pistol from flintlock to percussion. Would it have been made earlier, the signature, as Fernado already said, would have been hidden by the battery springs and senseless.

3. The style of the letters of the gunmaker's name and the adress "A PRAG" is totally different, so I assume that these have been made in different times by different makers.

4. So I think that the flintlockpistol has been made by an unknown gunmaker of the city of Prag and an also unknown gunmaker J. Ebert transferred it to percussion in the 1830/40s. Don't forget that the Neue Stöckel is not the bible and has lots of gaps. During the last 40 years I myself found more than 200 gunmakers worldwide not mentioned in this opus.

1. Would the original configuration, before conversion have been more like the gun style during his era?

2. I took the Turkish flintlock I have and did some measuring. If the connection points lined up before conversion, with nearly identical distance it is likely that the exposed areas would have been the same on both guns? The signature where it would not have been covered is still equal depth and equally worn to all the carvings. The small areas that would have been covered are worn to almost nothing? Why are there only 2 letters of his first name on the one side, if he put his name after the conversion? It looks like when it was converted those letters were on that part.

4. So the gun was converted in early 1800s to percussion? So when would the flintlock version have likely been made? Early 1700s? Lining up with the timeline for Joseph Ebert? That all seems a lot more logical in my mind, but I am just trying to pretend I am Sherlock Holmes :-)

21st August 2021, 07:34 PM	#1
tscheidt Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 23	Joseph Ebert gun early 18th century, made in Czechoslovakia First, I am super excited to be here. I have been looking at how helpful everyone is to each other here, and any arguments are just fact based and intellectual instead of what I find on Reddit:-). I have desperately tried to figure this gun and carvings out but I just can't crack it....it is also possible I am 100% the wrong direction etc.......But any help I would appreciate. APRAG on banner, in Hindi it is something old. The direct English translation is Standpat, to rebel authority. LAKSHMIBAI is likely the person carved in an authority position? MR built into the hilt? Marital Race was the only initials matching in found anywhere. Joseph Ebert? There is a famous German gun maker from this time with the same last name and nearly identical work. Why would a Rebellion supporting gun have English translations and English letters, with an unknown German name. The dragon symbol? The two rebels tied to a post? Or are they British Raj maybe? Cross in the circle with arrow through it on the trigger guard. The whole carving in a mystery. Maybe it all has an easy explanation but I have not been able to find it and I have fallen down many many rabbit holes:-). I also have a turkish gun I will post later but there are a few almost identical ones here in a forum and that is how I ended up here:-) Attached Images Last edited by Lee; 23rd August 2021 at 01:41 AM. Reason: Removed duplicate images

31st August 2021, 03:28 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Are you guys considering that, once this gun was originally a flintlock, the hammer would not have been that of the spitfire dog but something different ? And, for the same reason, even the Ebert name would have not originally been there, as it would be senselessly hidden under the frizzen spring ? And so was part of the front decoration ? I know all this is foolish but ... don't tie me to the whipping post . . Last edited by fernando; 31st August 2021 at 04:58 PM.

31st August 2021, 05:53 PM	#16
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	By the way ... Can you show us a picture of the hammer in the full-cock position ?

22nd August 2021, 12:49 AM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 414	While, sadly, I can't help with your question, it would be of interest to see photos of the other side of the pistol, and a top, bottom and front view as well. (That might also be of some use to those here who might be in a better position to help with identification.)

22nd August 2021, 06:57 PM	#7
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 290	Ebert Gun . Please seehttps://lsbauctions.com/954/beautiful-pair-of-p-ebert-sohne-suhl-pistols-50-caliber-percussion-target-pistols-antique/ for a pair of target pistols of P.Ebert Your exhibit could be an Ebert...and I noted looking at the web quite a variety of work by that gunmaker. I agree that a useful photo shot may be over the top of the breach where many gun smiths placed their names etc. I have never fired a 50 cal piston but imagine quite a recoil !! Peter Hudson

22nd August 2021, 07:27 PM	#10
tscheidt Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 23	In these pics you can see the name etc.

23rd August 2021, 03:54 PM	#13
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	The pistol appears to have a depiction of Britannia and forward of the trigger guard is the typical British pineapple design. If not British made then was made for the British market.

1st September 2021, 07:30 AM	#19
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,170	1. The style of the pistol is not the style in use during the living times of Joseph Ebert 1710-1740. This pistol is certainly made far later. 2. The signature of J. Ebert at the front part of the lockplate indicates that this was made after the transfer of the pistol from flintlock to percussion. Would it have been made earlier, the signature, as Fernado already said, would have been hidden by the battery springs and senseless. 3. The style of the letters of the gunmaker's name and the adress "A PRAG" is totally different, so I assume that these have been made in different times by different makers. 4. So I think that the flintlockpistol has been made by an unknown gunmaker of the city of Prag and an also unknown gunmaker J. Ebert transferred it to percussion in the 1830/40s. Don't forget that the Neue Stöckel is not the bible and has lots of gaps. During the last 40 years I myself found more than 200 gunmakers worldwide not mentioned in this opus.