A Scottish basket hilt for comment.

Cerjak · 19th February 2017, 05:52 PM

A Scottish basket hilt for comment.
O.L. 104 cm ; blade L. 88 cm; blade width at hilt 3.8 cm. single edge.
Pommel mark : 59
When I have bought it I had the guess that this sword has probably been hung for a long time inside a church . The blade and hilt were covered of black paint. the layers of paint seemed very old and have been very easy to remove even without efforts.
Any comment on it would be welcome.

Cerjak

Will M · 20th February 2017, 03:07 AM

I'm no expert on basket hilts of this period but it being numbered would suggest belonging to a regiment and therefore most likely an English basket hilt?
The black paint I would think was part of its history but coming off easily does not suggest old paint to me, really old that is.
I have a mortuary sword with remaining black paint on the inside of the hilt and would not be removed easily if you wanted to.
When does this sword date to, I'd be only guessing.
Nice find!

Battara · 20th February 2017, 04:18 AM

Could this have been a regiment belonging to the Black Watch? Later Scottish regimental basket hilts would have had a conical top (i.e. the American Revolution). This looks older, and might be English, but I am at this second leaning toward Scottish.

I also agree with the paint being later. Perhaps used as a form of preservation.

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2017, 05:38 AM

I would say likely Scottish hilt but probably from English garrison armouries there in first half 18th c. (good to see remains of wire wrap still present on the tang). The 'Black Watch' was 6 companies of Scots (clans Campbell, Fraser, Munro and Grant) formed post '15 rebellion to patrol the Highlands ('watch', the term black or dubh meant dark or covert). This was about 1740. The bun type pommel suggests about that time as does the hilt.
The traditional pierced saltires with these shapes also indicate it is Scottish, the English made hilts were plain bars and plates.

Not sure on the numbers on pommel but seem most likely to be rack number or other than regimental .

The conical pommel hilts (usually by Drury or Jeffries) were produced in Birmingham around 1760s and indeed were known used by Black Watch, the 42nd Highlanders.

Will M · 20th February 2017, 04:23 PM

Post # 130 has a similarly marked pommel and sword blade, hilt different.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...718#post182718

Cerjak · 20th February 2017, 04:48 PM

Thank you Will , as Jim has wrote it this numbers on pommel seem most likely to be a rack number .
best
Cerjak

Will M · 20th February 2017, 11:56 PM

I noticed you're in France, there were some basket hilts used by the French.
Might have some bearing on where you found it.

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2017, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

I noticed you're in France, there were some basket hilts used by the French.
Might have some bearing on where you found it.

Very well noted Will....there were considerable numbers of Jacobites there, and need to get to my Scottish stuff to find more. There is simply nothing quite like these basket hilts!!! but then, I am a wee bit biased

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2017, 01:33 AM

Will thank you for the link to the 2015 discussion . I noted the pommel and the ring below in this very English basket hilt, and the 60 on the pommel, which seems remarkably close to the 59 on this one. Perhaps in the same unit lineup?
Most interesting on this 'English' hilt is the very Scottish wristguard quillon, a feature from c. 1690s into 1700s, to guard against the much favored Scot wrist cut.
Also interesting are these punched linear dots which I did not notice in that discussion....paternoster? Not applicable here necessarily but I would think of that (if indeed the case) would suggest Jacobite association, but on an English hilt?
It is hard to follow the complications within the '45, where allegiances often transcended nationality, English were sometimes with the Scots and vice versa.

This may prove a most intriguing basket hilt.

Cerjak · 21st February 2017, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

I noticed you're in France, there were some basket hilts used by the French.
Might have some bearing on where you found it.

Hi Will ,
This sword come from UK.
best

Cerjak

NeilUK · 21st February 2017, 12:56 PM

Hi Cerjak,
That is an interesting sword you have there. The large ball pommel suggests that it is early, but the overall form of the basket is well developed. The heart-shaped piercings in the knuckle-guard and the sheelds (the contemporary term for the square panels) do not necessarily make the sword Scottish, but the lack of a wrist-guard does not necessarily make it English. The basket is very plain - no decorative motifs or edging to the panels or inlay, so fairly cheaply made. On balance I would say it is Scottish, first half of the 18th century, and made for regimental use or later conscripted into the army, hence the rack number. Hope my 2 cents worth helps.
Best wishes, Neil

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2017, 05:55 PM

Excellent observations Neil, and thank you! You bring up a most salient point, that while this hilt is 'by the numbers' of Scottish form, it lacks the fine tracing profiling the hilt elements and execution of the piercing of the guard plates. In some hours of poring through resources at hand, I did find that this blade corresponds to some of the basket hilt cavalry swords of the 1740s-50s (Darling, 1974, p.85). Also, my notion that English made hilts were typically 'plain' was clearly misplaced. I had forgotten that even the later conical pommel basket hilts made by Drury and Jeffries had pierced guard plates.

The lack of the wrist guard as you well point out does not make this hilt 'English', as this feature, though often seen on Scottish hilts, was not invariably the case. As hilts were being made for basket hilts which were destined for British use, it would seem such a feature may have been added in accord with maker or designation of those ordering them. The hilts were produced by makers who supplied the fitters or assemblers (Drury and Jeffries were getting hilts from Birmingham but they were in London).

Going to the interesting number on the pommel (Mazansky IID, d13, a 'tall bun') it would seem this is indeed a 'trooper' number. These type of numbers were often applied, but when 'officially' done by the armourer were typically placed on the hilt guards and along with regimental designation with the trooper number below with a slash separating from the unit letters or number. Being placed singly and on the pommel to me would suggest this was done 'in the field' , this a strong suggestion this sword having been on campaign .

The note by Will regarding French basket hilts is interesting, and actually many of the Jacobite troops of Prince Charles were assembled in France as there were many who had fled there during these times. There were actually many arms being gathered there as well, as many as 2400 swords along with guns etc. which were being transported from France (but did not reach Scotland, as noted by research by Ibrahiim in 2015 discussion notes).
Mazansky (p.188) notes that according to Stephen Wood there were basket hilts produced in France for exiled Jacobites later in the 18th c. but this has not been substantiated. It seems reasonable that many basket hilts may have been serviced or even produced in France as they were a stalwart ally of Scotland vs Great Britain, and numerous examples have blades or devices of French origin .

Cathey · 21st February 2017, 11:47 PM

Hi Cerjak

I would suggest your sword is British military mid 18th Century.

Two features are generally good indicators of British origin 1. Round pommel and 2. lack of extended blade slot. However even these features cannot be completely relied upon as exceptions do occasionally surface.

The blade slot reference is difficult to describe, however essentially it means that there is an indented slot under the guard that is wider than the blade. The Baron of Earlshall elaborates on these points in his book and I will attempt to post a summary on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...621#post211621 with some illustrations over the weekend.

Having said the sword is British Military manufacture, this does not preclude it from being issued to a Scottish regiment.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cerjak · 22nd February 2017, 08:31 AM

Cathey ,Jim,Will ,Neil

Thank you very much for your very interesting input about English and Scottish basket hilt sword,Cathey I would be very happy to see these illustration about the extended blade slot.
Best

Cerjak

19th February 2017, 05:52 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,064	A Scottish basket hilt for comment. A Scottish basket hilt for comment. O.L. 104 cm ; blade L. 88 cm; blade width at hilt 3.8 cm. single edge. Pommel mark : 59 When I have bought it I had the guess that this sword has probably been hung for a long time inside a church . The blade and hilt were covered of black paint. the layers of paint seemed very old and have been very easy to remove even without efforts. Any comment on it would be welcome. Cerjak Attached Images Last edited by Cerjak; 19th February 2017 at 06:07 PM.

21st February 2017, 01:33 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Will thank you for the link to the 2015 discussion . I noted the pommel and the ring below in this very English basket hilt, and the 60 on the pommel, which seems remarkably close to the 59 on this one. Perhaps in the same unit lineup? Most interesting on this 'English' hilt is the very Scottish wristguard quillon, a feature from c. 1690s into 1700s, to guard against the much favored Scot wrist cut. Also interesting are these punched linear dots which I did not notice in that discussion....paternoster? Not applicable here necessarily but I would think of that (if indeed the case) would suggest Jacobite association, but on an English hilt? It is hard to follow the complications within the '45, where allegiances often transcended nationality, English were sometimes with the Scots and vice versa. This may prove a most intriguing basket hilt. Attached Images

21st February 2017, 11:47 PM	#13
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	Scottish basket hilt for comment Hi Cerjak I would suggest your sword is British military mid 18th Century. Two features are generally good indicators of British origin 1. Round pommel and 2. lack of extended blade slot. However even these features cannot be completely relied upon as exceptions do occasionally surface. The blade slot reference is difficult to describe, however essentially it means that there is an indented slot under the guard that is wider than the blade. The Baron of Earlshall elaborates on these points in his book and I will attempt to post a summary on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...621#post211621 with some illustrations over the weekend. Having said the sword is British Military manufacture, this does not preclude it from being issued to a Scottish regiment. Cheers Cathey and Rex

20th February 2017, 03:07 AM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	I'm no expert on basket hilts of this period but it being numbered would suggest belonging to a regiment and therefore most likely an English basket hilt? The black paint I would think was part of its history but coming off easily does not suggest old paint to me, really old that is. I have a mortuary sword with remaining black paint on the inside of the hilt and would not be removed easily if you wanted to. When does this sword date to, I'd be only guessing. Nice find!

20th February 2017, 04:18 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Could this have been a regiment belonging to the Black Watch? Later Scottish regimental basket hilts would have had a conical top (i.e. the American Revolution). This looks older, and might be English, but I am at this second leaning toward Scottish. I also agree with the paint being later. Perhaps used as a form of preservation.

20th February 2017, 05:38 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I would say likely Scottish hilt but probably from English garrison armouries there in first half 18th c. (good to see remains of wire wrap still present on the tang). The 'Black Watch' was 6 companies of Scots (clans Campbell, Fraser, Munro and Grant) formed post '15 rebellion to patrol the Highlands ('watch', the term black or dubh meant dark or covert). This was about 1740. The bun type pommel suggests about that time as does the hilt. The traditional pierced saltires with these shapes also indicate it is Scottish, the English made hilts were plain bars and plates. Not sure on the numbers on pommel but seem most likely to be rack number or other than regimental . The conical pommel hilts (usually by Drury or Jeffries) were produced in Birmingham around 1760s and indeed were known used by Black Watch, the 42nd Highlanders.

20th February 2017, 04:23 PM	#5
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	Post # 130 has a similarly marked pommel and sword blade, hilt different. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...718#post182718

20th February 2017, 04:48 PM	#6
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,064	Thank you Will , as Jim has wrote it this numbers on pommel seem most likely to be a rack number . best Cerjak

20th February 2017, 11:56 PM	#7
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	I noticed you're in France, there were some basket hilts used by the French. Might have some bearing on where you found it.

21st February 2017, 12:56 PM	#11
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 122	Hi Cerjak, That is an interesting sword you have there. The large ball pommel suggests that it is early, but the overall form of the basket is well developed. The heart-shaped piercings in the knuckle-guard and the sheelds (the contemporary term for the square panels) do not necessarily make the sword Scottish, but the lack of a wrist-guard does not necessarily make it English. The basket is very plain - no decorative motifs or edging to the panels or inlay, so fairly cheaply made. On balance I would say it is Scottish, first half of the 18th century, and made for regimental use or later conscripted into the army, hence the rack number. Hope my 2 cents worth helps. Best wishes, Neil

21st February 2017, 05:55 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Excellent observations Neil, and thank you! You bring up a most salient point, that while this hilt is 'by the numbers' of Scottish form, it lacks the fine tracing profiling the hilt elements and execution of the piercing of the guard plates. In some hours of poring through resources at hand, I did find that this blade corresponds to some of the basket hilt cavalry swords of the 1740s-50s (Darling, 1974, p.85). Also, my notion that English made hilts were typically 'plain' was clearly misplaced. I had forgotten that even the later conical pommel basket hilts made by Drury and Jeffries had pierced guard plates. The lack of the wrist guard as you well point out does not make this hilt 'English', as this feature, though often seen on Scottish hilts, was not invariably the case. As hilts were being made for basket hilts which were destined for British use, it would seem such a feature may have been added in accord with maker or designation of those ordering them. The hilts were produced by makers who supplied the fitters or assemblers (Drury and Jeffries were getting hilts from Birmingham but they were in London). Going to the interesting number on the pommel (Mazansky IID, d13, a 'tall bun') it would seem this is indeed a 'trooper' number. These type of numbers were often applied, but when 'officially' done by the armourer were typically placed on the hilt guards and along with regimental designation with the trooper number below with a slash separating from the unit letters or number. Being placed singly and on the pommel to me would suggest this was done 'in the field' , this a strong suggestion this sword having been on campaign . The note by Will regarding French basket hilts is interesting, and actually many of the Jacobite troops of Prince Charles were assembled in France as there were many who had fled there during these times. There were actually many arms being gathered there as well, as many as 2400 swords along with guns etc. which were being transported from France (but did not reach Scotland, as noted by research by Ibrahiim in 2015 discussion notes). Mazansky (p.188) notes that according to Stephen Wood there were basket hilts produced in France for exiled Jacobites later in the 18th c. but this has not been substantiated. It seems reasonable that many basket hilts may have been serviced or even produced in France as they were a stalwart ally of Scotland vs Great Britain, and numerous examples have blades or devices of French origin .

22nd February 2017, 08:31 AM	#14
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,064	Cathey ,Jim,Will ,Neil Thank you very much for your very interesting input about English and Scottish basket hilt sword,Cathey I would be very happy to see these illustration about the extended blade slot. Best Cerjak