keris hilts material

Marcokeris · 4th May 2017, 03:47 PM

An interesting article about keris hilts material

http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...-spiritual.pdf

Battara · 4th May 2017, 04:41 PM

A great article thank you for posting this!

David · 4th May 2017, 05:48 PM

Thanks Marco, a very interesting and well presented article indeed, though i cannot say that it is not generously peppered with many questionable statements and inaccuracies that have plagued keris study for generations. It might be a good idea for us to ferret some of these out for discussion here.

Sajen · 4th May 2017, 07:16 PM

Thank you Marco!

kai · 4th May 2017, 08:45 PM

Hasn't this link been posted here before? If not, sorry for not bringing it over here earlier!

I'm with David - it seems like a compilation (mainly) based on secondary or tertiary sources and hardly any statements are explicitedly referenced.

Chinese whisper, anyone?

I realize how tough it is to present a critical discussion on interesting topics like this. I do believe though that we need to adhere to academic and/or journalistic standards, if we really want to progress from story-telling.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 4th May 2017, 11:10 PM

An interesting article.

It is very easy to criticise any writing that deals with the keris. As a general rule knowledgeable keris people from Solo will ruthlessly criticise keris opinions and writing produced by people with a Jogja background, and the opposite is also true. Both will level criticism at opinions and writing produced by people from outside the heartlands of Jawa.

I think I have heard :- "Why don't people learn about the keris before they write about the keris?" more times than I can remember. But when generally held opinions change from place to place, keris group to keris group and even if you cross the road, it is not really so easy to present an opinion, or even well based information, that is acceptable to everybody.

Yes, there are a number of statements in this article that are questionable or inaccurate, but that is only a reflection of my own opinion, which in some respects could be as inaccurate as that which I question.

Certainly, many statements in this article are not attached to a citation. I can understand this, if I write something I have a lot of difficulty providing citations, for the simple reason that most of what I write is the product of either personal experience, often experience over years, of small fragments of information coming together to produce a whole.

Then there is the question of just how good any citation in the matter of keris knowledge is able to be. I do not know of any published work on the keris that I could not write pages of criticism on. Most have been produced by people who have never been a part of the core of keris knowledge, frequently by people who do not speak Bahasa Indonesia, and who do not understand the society or the culture from which the keris has come. Even when a piece of writing has been produced by an Indonesian it is often the case that the Indonesian concerned either does not understand Javanese, or is on the outside of the World of the Keris, looking in through a window.

I just wrote that I could level extensive criticism of every piece of writing on the keris. This was not correct. I do know of one piece of writing, only one, that is above criticism, and that is the landmark publication of Garrett & Bronwen Solyom.

Personally, I am rather hesitant to publicly criticise anybody when it comes to keris opinions, and writing on the keris. We are dealing here with a subject that does not have a solid, universally agreed foundation. Most of that which is accepted as "knowledge" is in fact opinion or belief, and the opinion or belief that we might hold has probably come from somebody else, either in full, or by way of another person's opinions or beliefs.

The article under discussion here seems to have an equal measure of information gathered from other published sources, and information that the writer has sourced from personal informants and personal experience. I have not seen anything quite like this article, and I personally regard it as a useful addition to the keris literature.

4th May 2017, 03:47 PM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	keris hilts material An interesting article about keris hilts material http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...-spiritual.pdf

4th May 2017, 04:41 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	A great article thank you for posting this!

4th May 2017, 05:48 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,034	Thanks Marco, a very interesting and well presented article indeed, though i cannot say that it is not generously peppered with many questionable statements and inaccuracies that have plagued keris study for generations. It might be a good idea for us to ferret some of these out for discussion here.

4th May 2017, 07:16 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,516	Thank you Marco!

4th May 2017, 08:45 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,221	Hasn't this link been posted here before? If not, sorry for not bringing it over here earlier! I'm with David - it seems like a compilation (mainly) based on secondary or tertiary sources and hardly any statements are explicitedly referenced. Chinese whisper, anyone? I realize how tough it is to present a critical discussion on interesting topics like this. I do believe though that we need to adhere to academic and/or journalistic standards, if we really want to progress from story-telling. Regards, Kai

4th May 2017, 11:10 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,712	An interesting article. It is very easy to criticise any writing that deals with the keris. As a general rule knowledgeable keris people from Solo will ruthlessly criticise keris opinions and writing produced by people with a Jogja background, and the opposite is also true. Both will level criticism at opinions and writing produced by people from outside the heartlands of Jawa. I think I have heard :- "Why don't people learn about the keris before they write about the keris?" more times than I can remember. But when generally held opinions change from place to place, keris group to keris group and even if you cross the road, it is not really so easy to present an opinion, or even well based information, that is acceptable to everybody. Yes, there are a number of statements in this article that are questionable or inaccurate, but that is only a reflection of my own opinion, which in some respects could be as inaccurate as that which I question. Certainly, many statements in this article are not attached to a citation. I can understand this, if I write something I have a lot of difficulty providing citations, for the simple reason that most of what I write is the product of either personal experience, often experience over years, of small fragments of information coming together to produce a whole. Then there is the question of just how good any citation in the matter of keris knowledge is able to be. I do not know of any published work on the keris that I could not write pages of criticism on. Most have been produced by people who have never been a part of the core of keris knowledge, frequently by people who do not speak Bahasa Indonesia, and who do not understand the society or the culture from which the keris has come. Even when a piece of writing has been produced by an Indonesian it is often the case that the Indonesian concerned either does not understand Javanese, or is on the outside of the World of the Keris, looking in through a window. I just wrote that I could level extensive criticism of every piece of writing on the keris. This was not correct. I do know of one piece of writing, only one, that is above criticism, and that is the landmark publication of Garrett & Bronwen Solyom. Personally, I am rather hesitant to publicly criticise anybody when it comes to keris opinions, and writing on the keris. We are dealing here with a subject that does not have a solid, universally agreed foundation. Most of that which is accepted as "knowledge" is in fact opinion or belief, and the opinion or belief that we might hold has probably come from somebody else, either in full, or by way of another person's opinions or beliefs. The article under discussion here seems to have an equal measure of information gathered from other published sources, and information that the writer has sourced from personal informants and personal experience. I have not seen anything quite like this article, and I personally regard it as a useful addition to the keris literature.