Help identify cutlass marking please

BBJW · 14th October 2008, 02:25 AM

Does this marking look familiar to anyone? This English cutlass is marked W I D C No 38 at the back of the knuckle guard. I have found out that this stands for West Indian Dock Company, but the mark I haven't been able to identify. Also that the cutlass dates circa 1810 according to the curator at the WIDC museum. There is an H opposite the F on the other side of the sail that I just couldn't get to show in the photo. Thank you Jim for starting this discussion.

Cheers
bbjw

Ed · 14th October 2008, 03:17 PM

A boat with initials looks like.

M ELEY · 15th October 2008, 05:21 AM

Nice piece! Where is everyone getting these great maritime weapons! A little piracy and it would be mine!

There is a sword in Annis' "Naval Swords" with a similar marking from the dockyard as noted, same period/dating with the block letters GR and crown. Hilt classic for the period, spiralled iron as found on so many of these cutlasses. The marking is intriguing, but I don't recognize it. Not that long ago, I saw a similar marking of a ship with initials, but NOT to confuse the matter, that was on a ship's lathing axe (not a boarding axe) from the U.S. circa 1850.
On most cutlass that went to sea, if they were Naval, they'd have a specific marking to such. Private purchase might have a partial marking, like a crown or maker mark. The point is, I don't think this piece was either of these, but very possibly made for the security that protected the waterfront/ships/cargo areas at the docks. As naval police, they would have carried something similar to their collegues, i would think. This would explain the unique marking of the ship. Just a guess, though.

M ELEY · 15th October 2008, 05:31 AM

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=3933713

BBJW · 15th October 2008, 06:03 AM

I did forget to add that the museum curator did say it was probably used by dock security, but it was the marking that has been driving me crazy for years. I have another unmarked cutlass very similiar to the one in auction picture link you provided. Thanx.

Cheers
bbjw

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2008, 06:35 AM

I'm glad to see you come in on this Mark, as you have great expertise on things maritime, and the observations and suggestions are well placed.
Thank you for posting the link to the stirrup hilted example of one of these swords, also listed as a dockyard sword of early 19th century. In seeing that I recall having one of these swords identical many years ago, and mine had a M1796 light cavalry sabre blade. There were no markings. It seems the research on that sword suggested it was a sabre used by mountain artillery gunners in India c.1850, about the time these units were established. In "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975, p.153) it is stated that these units carried a "...short, curved, brass hilted sword". He notes further that in the 1890's when permanent batteries were formed, the regulation sword issued was very similar to the earlier swords. Since these had the ribbed cast iron grips, it seems plausible these brass hilted, ribbed cast iron sabres may have been the ones carried by the Indian artillery units.

The brass hilted swords carried by these mountain artillery units are clearly rare, and undocumented, in Robson (op.cit.p.163) there is reference to the Royal Hospital Corps sword of c.1861, and shows a ribbed cast iron grip of this exact form, a brass hilt with similar knuckleguard and quillon, looking strikingly like the example BJ has. It is suggested that these may actually have come from stores of Coast Guard swords issued some time before. There are no illustrations of the noted coast guard examples, nor further data on how early the issue was. In checking "Boarders Away" (Gilkerson), there is no data on these Coast Guard swords either.

With this being the case, I am wondering if possibly the swords issued to these developing Indian mountain artillery batteries might have been dockyard sabres in stores? such as these stirrup hilt sabres.

The ribbed cast iron grips clearly correspond to the iron cutlasses of c.1804, as well as later forms, and suggest that these brass hilted sabres were quite possibly originally intended for maritime use, especially with the brass hilts (the iron hilt cutlasses were typically 'japanned' varnished black). The Robson references illustrate the 'redistribution' of earlier issued weapons to later established specialty units, which may have included these swords which might have had either Coast Guard or other maritime use.

With regard to the marking, which appears to be a stylized ship (?) and a drawn sail (?) over a cross, and the initials F H. There have been earlier suggestions that these initials may have been for Friedrich Holler, a Solingen bayonet maker c.1820-66, but this is simply mentioned for the case for this being a makers mark.

My own thoughts on the mark have been that since associated with the dockyards, and obvious commercial movement of goods, this mark may have some connection to early forms of trademark known as merchants marks. These from early times carried various applications of the cross, intended originally as protection from evil or disaster, and eventually became marks of property on goods. With that, it would take finding a merchant or firm who used West India Docks carrying these initials. It also begs the question of whether a sword carried by the employee of one company, would carry the broader marking of the docks organization.

Just my thoughts on swords similar that speak to this apparantly very seldom found form, and on the mystery of these markings.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 15th October 2008, 10:03 PM

Excellent points and information, Jim! You bring up an important aspect of many of these brass/iron ribbed hilt swords...that many of them weren't naval at all. That being said, with the dock marking, I feel safe to assume at least a partial maritime provenance. Another iron-ribbed British sword often seen (and many times falsely attributed to the "private purchase naval" catagory are police swords) A police-type sword would fit this pattern, in that the naval dock workers were essentially a division of the naval police authority(sort of like MPs, I guess?). The Indian mountain artillary gunners is a very interesting development and could very well define the pattern a little better. Indian weapons ed after Brit patterns, especially maritime, bear many close resemblences. Friedrich Holler as maker definately fits the timeline for the import blade. Very interesting item and I hope someone might be able to pinpoint this marking down more pat. (Jim, you said you had one of these and you didn't think about me at Christmas! Tisk tisk

Ed · 16th October 2008, 12:35 AM

I don't think that the boat is anything other than a makers mark. Am I misunderstanding something?

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2008, 04:32 AM

Thank you Mark! I forgot about police swords, which do indeed fall into this civilian category that corresponds to maritime associated weapons. Since most of these are essentially private purchase of course, they are not as easy to identify as regulation.
This discussion really has gotten me intrigued with these rather obscure patterns, especially as they have so little data on them.

Ed, I think the main problem is that although it looks like a makers mark, no match or similar mark has yet been found to correspond, and the nature of the mark looks very much like merchants marks as described. Since this appears to be a commercially connected sword, there is a strong possibility of the marking placed much as those of East India Company on its weapons and those of the Dutch VOC as well. As Mark has noted, the Friedrich Holler time frame does fit loosely into the period this sword might have been used, but no confirmation of that marking for Holler or any maker has been found in the standard resources.

All best regards,
Jim

BBJW · 18th October 2008, 12:28 AM

This cutlass I got along with the WIDC cutlass. No markings at all on it. I'm not certain what exactly it is.

Cheers
BBJW

Jim McDougall · 18th October 2008, 03:09 AM

Excellent! and great that these two came together in the same lot. This looks like the same basic stirrup hilt weapon discussed with the artillery swords issued to mountain batteries, but there is no quillon disc. The blade looks like early 19th century blade, similar to the 'Montmorency' cross section favored by Wooley, is there evidence any markings might have been at back of blade?.
This heavy blade suggests of course the possibility of being of the type used as discussed for private issue maritime use, and possibly later to mountain artillery units.

Jim McDougall · 17th November 2008, 06:01 AM

Bump!

14th October 2008, 02:25 AM	#1
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 225	Help identify cutlass marking please Does this marking look familiar to anyone? This English cutlass is marked W I D C No 38 at the back of the knuckle guard. I have found out that this stands for West Indian Dock Company, but the mark I haven't been able to identify. Also that the cutlass dates circa 1810 according to the curator at the WIDC museum. There is an H opposite the F on the other side of the sail that I just couldn't get to show in the photo. Thank you Jim for starting this discussion. Cheers bbjw Attached Images Last edited by BBJW; 14th October 2008 at 02:42 AM.

14th October 2008, 03:17 PM	#2
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 189	A boat with initials looks like. Attached Images

15th October 2008, 05:31 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Similar pattern... http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=3933713

15th October 2008, 06:35 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I'm glad to see you come in on this Mark, as you have great expertise on things maritime, and the observations and suggestions are well placed. Thank you for posting the link to the stirrup hilted example of one of these swords, also listed as a dockyard sword of early 19th century. In seeing that I recall having one of these swords identical many years ago, and mine had a M1796 light cavalry sabre blade. There were no markings. It seems the research on that sword suggested it was a sabre used by mountain artillery gunners in India c.1850, about the time these units were established. In "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975, p.153) it is stated that these units carried a "...short, curved, brass hilted sword". He notes further that in the 1890's when permanent batteries were formed, the regulation sword issued was very similar to the earlier swords. Since these had the ribbed cast iron grips, it seems plausible these brass hilted, ribbed cast iron sabres may have been the ones carried by the Indian artillery units. The brass hilted swords carried by these mountain artillery units are clearly rare, and undocumented, in Robson (op.cit.p.163) there is reference to the Royal Hospital Corps sword of c.1861, and shows a ribbed cast iron grip of this exact form, a brass hilt with similar knuckleguard and quillon, looking strikingly like the example BJ has. It is suggested that these may actually have come from stores of Coast Guard swords issued some time before. There are no illustrations of the noted coast guard examples, nor further data on how early the issue was. In checking "Boarders Away" (Gilkerson), there is no data on these Coast Guard swords either. With this being the case, I am wondering if possibly the swords issued to these developing Indian mountain artillery batteries might have been dockyard sabres in stores? such as these stirrup hilt sabres. The ribbed cast iron grips clearly correspond to the iron cutlasses of c.1804, as well as later forms, and suggest that these brass hilted sabres were quite possibly originally intended for maritime use, especially with the brass hilts (the iron hilt cutlasses were typically 'japanned' varnished black). The Robson references illustrate the 'redistribution' of earlier issued weapons to later established specialty units, which may have included these swords which might have had either Coast Guard or other maritime use. With regard to the marking, which appears to be a stylized ship (?) and a drawn sail (?) over a cross, and the initials F H. There have been earlier suggestions that these initials may have been for Friedrich Holler, a Solingen bayonet maker c.1820-66, but this is simply mentioned for the case for this being a makers mark. My own thoughts on the mark have been that since associated with the dockyards, and obvious commercial movement of goods, this mark may have some connection to early forms of trademark known as merchants marks. These from early times carried various applications of the cross, intended originally as protection from evil or disaster, and eventually became marks of property on goods. With that, it would take finding a merchant or firm who used West India Docks carrying these initials. It also begs the question of whether a sword carried by the employee of one company, would carry the broader marking of the docks organization. Just my thoughts on swords similar that speak to this apparantly very seldom found form, and on the mystery of these markings. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th October 2008 at 03:59 PM.

18th October 2008, 12:28 AM	#10
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 225	This cutlass I got along with the WIDC cutlass. No markings at all on it. I'm not certain what exactly it is. Cheers BBJW Attached Images

15th October 2008, 05:21 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Nice piece! Where is everyone getting these great maritime weapons! A little piracy and it would be mine! There is a sword in Annis' "Naval Swords" with a similar marking from the dockyard as noted, same period/dating with the block letters GR and crown. Hilt classic for the period, spiralled iron as found on so many of these cutlasses. The marking is intriguing, but I don't recognize it. Not that long ago, I saw a similar marking of a ship with initials, but NOT to confuse the matter, that was on a ship's lathing axe (not a boarding axe) from the U.S. circa 1850. On most cutlass that went to sea, if they were Naval, they'd have a specific marking to such. Private purchase might have a partial marking, like a crown or maker mark. The point is, I don't think this piece was either of these, but very possibly made for the security that protected the waterfront/ships/cargo areas at the docks. As naval police, they would have carried something similar to their collegues, i would think. This would explain the unique marking of the ship. Just a guess, though.

15th October 2008, 06:03 AM	#5
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 225	I did forget to add that the museum curator did say it was probably used by dock security, but it was the marking that has been driving me crazy for years. I have another unmarked cutlass very similiar to the one in auction picture link you provided. Thanx. Cheers bbjw

15th October 2008, 10:03 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Excellent points and information, Jim! You bring up an important aspect of many of these brass/iron ribbed hilt swords...that many of them weren't naval at all. That being said, with the dock marking, I feel safe to assume at least a partial maritime provenance. Another iron-ribbed British sword often seen (and many times falsely attributed to the "private purchase naval" catagory are police swords) A police-type sword would fit this pattern, in that the naval dock workers were essentially a division of the naval police authority(sort of like MPs, I guess?). The Indian mountain artillary gunners is a very interesting development and could very well define the pattern a little better. Indian weapons ed after Brit patterns, especially maritime, bear many close resemblences. Friedrich Holler as maker definately fits the timeline for the import blade. Very interesting item and I hope someone might be able to pinpoint this marking down more pat. (Jim, you said you had one of these and you didn't think about me at Christmas! Tisk tisk

16th October 2008, 12:35 AM	#8
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 189	I don't think that the boat is anything other than a makers mark. Am I misunderstanding something?

16th October 2008, 04:32 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Thank you Mark! I forgot about police swords, which do indeed fall into this civilian category that corresponds to maritime associated weapons. Since most of these are essentially private purchase of course, they are not as easy to identify as regulation. This discussion really has gotten me intrigued with these rather obscure patterns, especially as they have so little data on them. Ed, I think the main problem is that although it looks like a makers mark, no match or similar mark has yet been found to correspond, and the nature of the mark looks very much like merchants marks as described. Since this appears to be a commercially connected sword, there is a strong possibility of the marking placed much as those of East India Company on its weapons and those of the Dutch VOC as well. As Mark has noted, the Friedrich Holler time frame does fit loosely into the period this sword might have been used, but no confirmation of that marking for Holler or any maker has been found in the standard resources. All best regards, Jim

18th October 2008, 03:09 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Excellent! and great that these two came together in the same lot. This looks like the same basic stirrup hilt weapon discussed with the artillery swords issued to mountain batteries, but there is no quillon disc. The blade looks like early 19th century blade, similar to the 'Montmorency' cross section favored by Wooley, is there evidence any markings might have been at back of blade?. This heavy blade suggests of course the possibility of being of the type used as discussed for private issue maritime use, and possibly later to mountain artillery units.

17th November 2008, 06:01 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Bump!