Sword fragment - opinions

Reventlov · 23rd December 2022, 12:55 PM

Hi Andreas,

The typology of your sword (type H/I disk pommel, type 2 cross) is very similar to a family with some famous members, like the swords from the River Witham and Whittlesea Mere, which have elaborate inscriptions. Examples are widely scattered around Europe, and I would guess their age overall as around 1200-1250.

While looking in my files for some examples to share, I think I have actually stumbled upon your sword itself! It was found in Slovakia, in 1971. I will copy below the description published in Aleksic's Swords from Southeastern Europe. Notice that the length corresponds to your measurement. More information and the illustration are in a recent thesis, Chladné zbrane 10. – 16. storočia pochádzajúce z rieky Váh, by Michal Labuda.

54. Dead backwater of r. Váh, site Pasínek, near Šoporňa, western Slovakia, chance find. Type: I, ?, 2.
L= 33.4*; BL= 15.7*; HL= 18.2; CL= 18.7; BW= 4.5; PH= 5.5; PW= 6; TL= 11.5. Dat.: around 2/2
XIII – beg.of XIV c. Lit.: Katkin 1996, 106.

Best regards,
Mark

AHorsa · 23rd December 2022, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Hi Andreas,

The typology of your sword (type H/I disk pommel, type 2 cross) is very similar to a family with some famous members, like the swords from the River Witham and Whittlesea Mere, which have elaborate inscriptions. Examples are widely scattered around Europe, and I would guess their age overall as around 1200-1250.

While looking in my files for some examples to share, I think I have actually stumbled upon your sword itself! It was found in Slovakia, in 1971. I will copy below the description published in Aleksic's Swords from Southeastern Europe. Notice that the length corresponds to your measurement. More information and the illustration are in a recent thesis, Chladné zbrane 10. – 16. storočia pochádzajúce z rieky Váh, by Michal Labuda.

54. Dead backwater of r. Váh, site Pasínek, near Šoporňa, western Slovakia, chance find. Type: I, ?, 2.
L= 33.4*; BL= 15.7*; HL= 18.2; CL= 18.7; BW= 4.5; PH= 5.5; PW= 6; TL= 11.5. Dat.: around 2/2
XIII – beg.of XIV c. Lit.: Katkin 1996, 106.

Best regards,
Mark

Woooooow Mark!! You are kiddding me. How cool is that! Thank you very much mate!

@Will: Yes, it is definetely broken and not rusted away. I guess battle damaged. I was planning to put it on an acryl stand, but now thinking about putting it into a wooden frame on the wall.

Best regards
Andreas

Lee · 23rd December 2022, 04:58 PM

Nothing is better than having a publicly published picture from before the current plague of forgeries as provenance and to also know from where the example originated. Good work Reventlov! The irregular broken end is, as has been said before above, absolutely characteristic of a fracture from use.

Below is an image of another broken sword of similar age and form showing a similar fracture break.

Will M · 23rd December 2022, 07:01 PM

A frame can work for this but you only see one side and becomes two dimensional. I like open display having three dimensions however the choice is yours and it will be great to see the results. I would remove the recent corrosion then coat the sword in a rust stabilizer that tends to darken the iron.
It makes for a pleasing finish. Iron and steel were valuable and I can only imagine it's rare to find a damaged sword.

Reventlov · 23rd December 2022, 10:11 PM

You are welcome, and thank you Lee. Labuda's thesis can be downloaded here, there is a little discussion of the sword and the circumstances of its finding, but text is all in Slovakian:

https://is.muni.cz/th/aviae/

AHorsa · 24th December 2022, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

A frame can work for this but you only see one side and becomes two dimensional. I like open display having three dimensions however the choice is yours and it will be great to see the results. I would remove the recent corrosion then coat the sword in a rust stabilizer that tends to darken the iron.
It makes for a pleasing finish. Iron and steel were valuable and I can only imagine it's rare to find a damaged sword.

Of course you are right regerading the frame / stand. On the other hand: also on a stand one can only see one side. Maybe I´ll do both and change from time to time

I will show you images, once it is done.

The corrusion seems different on the images. It is old rust / patina, which was partly remvoved. There is no new rust, even if it appears so on the images.

@ Lee: Thank you for your example. Can you tell what is written on the blade?

Kind regards
Andreas

Lee · 25th December 2022, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Can you tell what is written on the blade?

It is an iron inlaid, typically misspelt, "In nomine Domini" without spaces and between crosses potent.

AHorsa · 27th December 2022, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

It is an iron inlaid, typically misspelt, "In nomine Domini" without spaces and between crosses potent.

Thank you, Lee!

I assume, that the fragment was,t cleaned in 1996, when Katkin did the drawin from #11. This would explain, why the detail of the quillon stepped in three parts wasn´t mentioned. I browsed many pictures of swords but couldn´t find an example with a similar parrier rod / quillons. Does anyone have an example of such?

Thanks and kind regards
Andreas

23rd December 2022, 04:58 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 898	Another sword likely broke in use Nothing is better than having a publicly published picture from before the current plague of forgeries as provenance and to also know from where the example originated. Good work Reventlov! The irregular broken end is, as has been said before above, absolutely characteristic of a fracture from use. Below is an image of another broken sword of similar age and form showing a similar fracture break. Attached Images

23rd December 2022, 12:55 PM	#1
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	Hi Andreas, The typology of your sword (type H/I disk pommel, type 2 cross) is very similar to a family with some famous members, like the swords from the River Witham and Whittlesea Mere, which have elaborate inscriptions. Examples are widely scattered around Europe, and I would guess their age overall as around 1200-1250. While looking in my files for some examples to share, I think I have actually stumbled upon your sword itself! It was found in Slovakia, in 1971. I will copy below the description published in Aleksic's Swords from Southeastern Europe. Notice that the length corresponds to your measurement. More information and the illustration are in a recent thesis, Chladné zbrane 10. – 16. storočia pochádzajúce z rieky Váh, by Michal Labuda. 54. Dead backwater of r. Váh, site Pasínek, near Šoporňa, western Slovakia, chance find. Type: I, ?, 2. L= 33.4; BL= 15.7; HL= 18.2; CL= 18.7; BW= 4.5; PH= 5.5; PW= 6; TL= 11.5. Dat.: around 2/2 XIII – beg.of XIV c. Lit.: Katkin 1996, 106. Best regards, Mark Attached Images

23rd December 2022, 07:01 PM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	A frame can work for this but you only see one side and becomes two dimensional. I like open display having three dimensions however the choice is yours and it will be great to see the results. I would remove the recent corrosion then coat the sword in a rust stabilizer that tends to darken the iron. It makes for a pleasing finish. Iron and steel were valuable and I can only imagine it's rare to find a damaged sword.

23rd December 2022, 10:11 PM	#5
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	You are welcome, and thank you Lee. Labuda's thesis can be downloaded here, there is a little discussion of the sword and the circumstances of its finding, but text is all in Slovakian: https://is.muni.cz/th/aviae/