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Old 22nd June 2020, 12:24 PM   #1
francantolin
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Default Strange blade on italian(?) old sword / B V mark

Hello dear members,

I wanted to ask you some questions to identifiy this strange sword:

I think it's a real old sword,the hilt has an italian storta shape but the blade is really strange: large and short and is really flat.

Is it an italian item ( medieval ? how old ?? )

Could it be an executioneer's sword ?

Has the blade been shortened ? Or a later change ??

Does someone know the symbol-marks and the B V


I'll post later other pictures of the blade

Kind regards
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Old 22nd June 2020, 01:30 PM   #2
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B V or P V mark for the thin blade...

looks a little like a ''langue de boeuf'' blade but hasn't the v shape

cut/ shortened blade ?

Kind regards
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Old 22nd June 2020, 07:33 PM   #3
M ELEY
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Very nice item!! No expert, but the hilt style, pommel and quillons nearly exactly match those found on Italian falchions from the 17th c. It might be a cut-down blade, but you are right that executioner's types had rounded tips, so...
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Old 22nd June 2020, 09:14 PM   #4
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Maybe a cut down version of this type of blade. (Italian, late XVth - early XVIth century. The grip is a replacement, and the fittings may or may not be original.)

How is the cross section at the tip ? Is there a regular distal taper ?
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Old 22nd June 2020, 10:03 PM   #5
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It looks like a typical Venetian storta grip, 16-17thC. The blade is slightly unusual shape but obviously for cutting rather than thrusting. I have seen a German felddegen/haudegen with a completely rounded tip so not that strange. I have also seen a Styrian dussack with very similar metal condition and markings (eye lash, etc) which was end 16thC. It seems there’s a little space on the ricasso on which to lay the index finger to improve the grip and balance, which would argue for a fighting sword.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 08:01 AM   #6
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Hello,

Really thank you all for your precious comments !!!

I put some other pictures,

for the cross section ( I don't know if I have understood everything , my english is not that good ! ),
it is not a diamond section, it's almost flat but a little larger in the center

looks like a large ham slicer - carpaccio knife blade

An old soldier's carpaccio maker sword ?

For the little space on the ricasso,
they used it like like that ? I saw this little space on old swords and wondered why they were made like that ( Thank's !!)


I forgot to mention the size: 70cm long for 850 grams
It seems not bad balanced, ''fits'' good in the hand
so maybe not shorted too much...
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Old 23rd June 2020, 09:41 AM   #7
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Real antique falchions WERE rather thin, modern replicas are usually way too thick. They were meant as cutters, not stabbers, so a round nose is not a problem. The very wide profile lets you have a very sharp edge angle.

My dha equivalent: I would not like to have this poked into a soft spot. It's razor sharp all the way down the edge and around the tip to the spine.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 01:51 PM   #8
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Hello Kronckew,
really nice dha sword, we can see it's not a decoration made item !

You have a sharp eye !
It's indeed a razor cut blade all around but we can't see the border were it has been grinded/ sharpened, all made gently...
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Old 23rd June 2020, 04:00 PM   #9
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Luckily the picture was in focus and you can see it's edge section, just above your thumb, is rather sharp.

Grip & guard looks rather Italianate and late 16c-early 17c. I suspect it costs a bit more than my dha.

Ham Slicer is a good name for it. Parma Ham of course. I love Prosciutto, it is a favourite of mine.

People in some cultures refer to humans as 'long pork' - it fits.

Doubt it's an executioner's sword too short and not as dramatic as the zweihanders, or axes, German Landsknechts katsbalger swords had very rounded tips, again made more for slashing cuts. see 16c one below.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 04:03 PM   #10
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The markings on the guard throw me a bit. The "eye" pattern with dots are often seen on East Indian tulwar and some Afghan blades I've seen. However, my nimble memory might remember that this was, in fact, an old Italian bladesmith's mark, used sometimes much later as a symbol of quality, like Sahagan and Andria Fererra marks? Might want to confirm these "eye lash" markings as they are called-
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Old 24th June 2020, 07:42 AM   #11
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The hilt is that of an Italian storta, probably Venice from around 1580.
The wide blade reminds me of a beautiful short riding sword that I once had in my collection. still don't really know why I sold it.
this blade originally came from an Oakeshott Type XVIIIC from the first quarter of the 16th century. this type was known only from Alexandria arsenal swords and was unknown outside this group.
It had similar Italian p/cross marks but was cut down in length.
The geometry is exceptionally suitable for cutting strokes. the blade is flat diamond shaped but has a very low medial ridge, creating a wedge shape. so mass through the width, rigidity through the ridge creates the perfect slashing weapon.
Clive Thomas has written beautiful publications about this type XVIIIC of swords, I have had interesting discussions with him about this very efficient geometry.
So your blade may have been reused from a damaged medieval sword or it may have been developed in the 16th century, in any case it is a very interesting storta.

attached riding sword and the famous type XVIIIC Harriet Dean sword, sold for the absolute record of GBP386.500 !!!! @ Christies

best,
Jasper
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Old 24th June 2020, 07:13 PM   #12
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Hello Jasper,

Thank's a lot,
really interesting,

all the story about these old sword are amazing and fascinating,
the ''Christies's one'' must have been bought by the MET,
craaazy prices !!!!

Kind regards
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Old 27th June 2020, 03:22 PM   #13
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Hello,

I wanted to buy a book from Ewart Oakeshott for see the different types of swords, classifications but there is a lot of differents books,

is Records of the medieval swords the best one ?

Kind regards
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:34 AM   #14
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yes it is.
Before this publication, medieval swords were seen as heavy simple clumsy weapons, made without any substantiation.
Oakeshott made the connection between the degree of armor in a certain period and the property of a sword.
for example in warm areas where light protection is worn, you will benefit more from a swift sword that can cut strokes instead of a stabbing weapon.
the type XVIIIC is such a sword.

best,
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