Austrian hussar sabre for ID

Victrix · 19th April 2017, 09:37 PM

From the discussions above I see no reason to reject the published claims put forward by Messrs Wagner and Protiva regarding the notches on Austrian swords from the beginning of the 18thC, unless evidence materializes to prove them incorrect.

I would be interested to know if all swords of the particular models in Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons had notches, or only some rare examples. Intentionally or not, Wagner's book gives the impression that many Austrian pallasches and sabres from the first half of the 18thC had notches on their blades. Then the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2017, 05:48 AM

Actually it is interesting to revisit this very old research, and try to find old notes.
I think here it is important to note a caveat to researchers. One thing I think many of us at this for a very long time (usually more years than we care to admit), it is not always the case that because something is written in a book, it is always correct. Most authors note this fact in the introductions, and readily accept that new evidence may render some of their comments and findings to be incorrect.

I have always had the highest respect for those with the courage and tenacity to publish, and have maintained the highest regard for the works of many now venerable authors of key references we all often use and cite as resources. Over the years however, we have often found cases of mistakes and other long held ideas now disproven.
In one case, while researching a topic and checking a reference in an article by a well known author, I asked about a particular observation which I needed to verify to support a theory. Apparently the statement was made by him as an assumption from an unsubstantiated source, which he openly admitted, and for which I admired his honesty. Though discouraged, it reinforced the importance of rechecking and cross checking material and sources.

Now turning to Wagner's reference ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.339) I found the quote in notes (I do not have the book at the moment).....
"...the tooth, cut in the back edge, helped the 'old hewers' to aggravate the wound when thrusting, especially when cutting with the back edge of the broadsword, where there was no room to put much strength into the cut".

This entry seems presumed, the suggestion to the tooth (notch) in aggravating the thrust wound as I have noted seems dangerous in that the blade would become snagged in that wound. However, the note about cutting with the back edge of the blade suggests a back stroke as might be used in the close quarters of melee, which may be what Wagner means by 'no room for strength to the cut'.
This seems to make some degree of sense, as these kinds of wounds, not necessarily debilitating may have been in the sense of the 'stramazone', a slashing across the face to cause distracting bleeding, used in dueling with rapiers.

I found that the references to the 'old hewers; referred to the "War of the Spanish Succession" (1701-14), where the Austrian army still was using many of the older swords from the Thirty Years War as well as forms from continuous war with Turkey. There seem to have a wide scope of forms, but clearly reaching the end of their working lives. These forces in 1701 were indeed led by Eugene of Savoy (d.1736).

In Wagner, there are actually five exemplars illustrated with the notch feature:
Plate 2, p.372, a cavalry broadsword of beginning of 18th c. Prince Eugene inscription.
Plate 3, an Austrian cuirassier broadsword early 18th c.
Plate 7, an Austrian heavy cavalry broadsword in use until c.1740
Plate 35, a Pandour officers sabre c.1747, Hungarian
Plate 39, an Austrian hussar sergeants sabre 1768

All of these are notched at back of blade near tip.

I recall having thought at one time that these notched had to do with the notorious Pandour units, however it seems only that one officers sabre had the notch. There are no other examples throughout the book which have any such notch, only these Austrian examples, which seem anomalies.

I have never (since research began c. 1994) found sound reference to other notched blades other than unsubstantiated comments from other collectors and dealers who had seen them on French examples in cases. I have seen a British sabre of c.1780 with this exact notch but have not the details to support . It would seem the other instances mentioned regarding the Prussian cases are similarly surmised.

In original research in the 90s, I wanted to confirm that the examples in Wagner actually had the notch and this was not artists license, so I contacted the museums he cited for the originals. While they sent me photos of the original swords, when asked, the officials typically claimed they 'had no idea what the notches were for'. This seemed surprising as these were primarily Czech museums, where Wagner had been a curator.

corrado26 · 20th April 2017, 07:49 AM

These notches are at no way limited to Austian swords. There are Prussian cuirassier swords M 1732 with such a notch as well as Saxon cavalry swords M 1764. The foto shows the the tip of the Prussian sword.
corrado26

Victrix · 20th April 2017, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

These notches are at no way limited to Austian swords. There are Prussian cuirassier swords M 1732 with such a notch as well as Saxon cavalry swords M 1764. The foto shows the the tip of the Prussian sword.
corrado26

Many thanks for posting this picture Corrado26! Any chance of seeing the whole sword including the tip?

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2017, 05:48 PM

I hope the detail from Wagner might respond to your earlier question Victrix.
I agree, it would be great to see the photo of the sword with the tip.
That was why I wrote the those museums and got photos of the swords emphasizing the notched tip.

The British sword I mentioned has only in the description that the tip was notched, and apparently deliberately, not from damage. However this reference was in my notes and the source not cited (I cant believe I did that!) so useless for supportive evidence. I just know I saw it, and the sword was entirely out of East European context c. 1780.

There must be some account or reference in the military history corpus of these Austrian and Prussian cavalry in which this curious anomaly is noted. Occasionally such dimension and detail is noted in mention of the troopers field notching their blades perhaps.

Victrix · 20th April 2017, 10:04 PM

Yes, thank you very much Jim for raising the issue of notches on blades to my attention. If I come across information regarding this I will share it with you. We might not necessarily be able to solve the conundrum, but at least we'll be able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusions.

Jim McDougall · 21st April 2017, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Yes, thank you very much Jim for raising the issue of notches on blades to my attention. If I come across information regarding this I will share it with you. We might not necessarily be able to solve the conundrum, but at least we'll be able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusions.

We have come a long way here Victrix! (remember this one has been 'on my books' for over 20 years! but honestly I have not lost sleep over it)

Even if we do not solve this, it is good to have the data at hand compiled for review, and we can at least find reasonable plausibility for the matter.
I very much appreciate discussing this with you and Corrado!
Lets stay at it !

corrado26 · 21st April 2017, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Many thanks for posting this picture Corrado26! Any chance of seeing the whole sword including the tip?

I'll try to get such fotos -be patient please
corrado26

corrado26 · 12th December 2022, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710 with a blade with two notches

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2022, 05:49 PM

Udo, thank you so much for this! I cannot believe I missed these other most valuable entries bv Victrix and Cel7 et al.....and Wayne, well noted on the Spanish notch.....another anomaly of this genre.

I think the mention of the 'swiping back cut' is a most viable suggestion. In some sword fighting the Italians used a diversionary slashing cut termed 'stramazone', which usually was on the forehead. This resulted of course in bleeding into the eyes and rendering the opponent notably distracted, unable to defend properly.
This seems more viable for such a feature than for dramatic wounding, which would be redundant in a thrust.

The notions of these relatively shallow and small notches for picking up items off the ground or for catching reins seem a bit tenuous and unlikely.

Thanks to JT88 for the Pottenstein detail!

Really sorry guys, not sure what happened, I cant even blame the UFO's

awdaniec666 · 14th January 2024, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710...

Corrado, what makes this specimen probably Bavarian? I am curious about the references. Thanks.

corrado26 · 14th January 2024, 03:07 PM

Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3"

toaster5sqn · 14th January 2024, 08:16 PM

Just having found this post and read the discussion about the mysterious notches. As a HEMA practioner there is a trick with sabres of snapping a short back edge draw cut at your opponents sword hand or wrist. I'm given to understand it comes from Hungarian sources but can't confirm this as my own study has been focused on British sources.

The point is this is not an effective cut and in no way could it be a fight ending blow, its intent is to injure your opponents hand just enough to give you an advantage going forward and the notch does appear perfect for this technique.

It is also a technique for one on one duels not open battle which may explain why it appears on only some blades, both officer and enlisted. This would suggest that the owner of that particular blade was willing and prepared to fight a duel, or at least wished to appear as such.

The fact that the technique does not appear in the British manuals and that the notches do not appear on British blades may be considered suggestive but hardly constitutes proof.

Robert

corrado26 · 15th January 2024, 02:23 PM

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

Norman McCormick · 15th January 2024, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

awdaniec666 · 16th January 2024, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3"

Thanks a lot!

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

It is also a technique for one on one duels ...

While I´m a big enthusiast of bringing in HEMA experience into arms and armour studies, one must recognize that fighting on horseback and cavalry maneuvers in general have nothing to do with fencing (when defined as one vs one on ground). This is why I think the notches have a more "practical/tool-like" context. But hey - who knows!

Victrix · 14th January 2024, 08:53 AM

I have some pics of this sabre in an uncleaned state which I thought I’d share with you. I know some of you have reservations about cleaning antique items and that they should show patina to prove their age. In this case I decided to clean the item to restore its former dignity and show its real beauty. The brass also showed green oxidation which caused me concern about possible future damage. The brass mouth of the scabbard is loose so I show you what this looks like (anatomy).

20th April 2017, 07:49 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,171	These notches are at no way limited to Austian swords. There are Prussian cuirassier swords M 1732 with such a notch as well as Saxon cavalry swords M 1764. The foto shows the the tip of the Prussian sword. corrado26 Attached Images

14th January 2024, 03:07 PM	#12
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,171	Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3" Attached Images

14th January 2024, 08:53 AM	#17
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 682	I have some pics of this sabre in an uncleaned state which I thought I’d share with you. I know some of you have reservations about cleaning antique items and that they should show patina to prove their age. In this case I decided to clean the item to restore its former dignity and show its real beauty. The brass also showed green oxidation which caused me concern about possible future damage. The brass mouth of the scabbard is loose so I show you what this looks like (anatomy). Attached Images

19th April 2017, 09:37 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 682	From the discussions above I see no reason to reject the published claims put forward by Messrs Wagner and Protiva regarding the notches on Austrian swords from the beginning of the 18thC, unless evidence materializes to prove them incorrect. I would be interested to know if all swords of the particular models in Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons had notches, or only some rare examples. Intentionally or not, Wagner's book gives the impression that many Austrian pallasches and sabres from the first half of the 18thC had notches on their blades. Then the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

20th April 2017, 05:48 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Actually it is interesting to revisit this very old research, and try to find old notes. I think here it is important to note a caveat to researchers. One thing I think many of us at this for a very long time (usually more years than we care to admit), it is not always the case that because something is written in a book, it is always correct. Most authors note this fact in the introductions, and readily accept that new evidence may render some of their comments and findings to be incorrect. I have always had the highest respect for those with the courage and tenacity to publish, and have maintained the highest regard for the works of many now venerable authors of key references we all often use and cite as resources. Over the years however, we have often found cases of mistakes and other long held ideas now disproven. In one case, while researching a topic and checking a reference in an article by a well known author, I asked about a particular observation which I needed to verify to support a theory. Apparently the statement was made by him as an assumption from an unsubstantiated source, which he openly admitted, and for which I admired his honesty. Though discouraged, it reinforced the importance of rechecking and cross checking material and sources. Now turning to Wagner's reference ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.339) I found the quote in notes (I do not have the book at the moment)..... "...the tooth, cut in the back edge, helped the 'old hewers' to aggravate the wound when thrusting, especially when cutting with the back edge of the broadsword, where there was no room to put much strength into the cut". This entry seems presumed, the suggestion to the tooth (notch) in aggravating the thrust wound as I have noted seems dangerous in that the blade would become snagged in that wound. However, the note about cutting with the back edge of the blade suggests a back stroke as might be used in the close quarters of melee, which may be what Wagner means by 'no room for strength to the cut'. This seems to make some degree of sense, as these kinds of wounds, not necessarily debilitating may have been in the sense of the 'stramazone', a slashing across the face to cause distracting bleeding, used in dueling with rapiers. I found that the references to the 'old hewers; referred to the "War of the Spanish Succession" (1701-14), where the Austrian army still was using many of the older swords from the Thirty Years War as well as forms from continuous war with Turkey. There seem to have a wide scope of forms, but clearly reaching the end of their working lives. These forces in 1701 were indeed led by Eugene of Savoy (d.1736). In Wagner, there are actually five exemplars illustrated with the notch feature: Plate 2, p.372, a cavalry broadsword of beginning of 18th c. Prince Eugene inscription. Plate 3, an Austrian cuirassier broadsword early 18th c. Plate 7, an Austrian heavy cavalry broadsword in use until c.1740 Plate 35, a Pandour officers sabre c.1747, Hungarian Plate 39, an Austrian hussar sergeants sabre 1768 All of these are notched at back of blade near tip. I recall having thought at one time that these notched had to do with the notorious Pandour units, however it seems only that one officers sabre had the notch. There are no other examples throughout the book which have any such notch, only these Austrian examples, which seem anomalies. I have never (since research began c. 1994) found sound reference to other notched blades other than unsubstantiated comments from other collectors and dealers who had seen them on French examples in cases. I have seen a British sabre of c.1780 with this exact notch but have not the details to support . It would seem the other instances mentioned regarding the Prussian cases are similarly surmised. In original research in the 90s, I wanted to confirm that the examples in Wagner actually had the notch and this was not artists license, so I contacted the museums he cited for the originals. While they sent me photos of the original swords, when asked, the officials typically claimed they 'had no idea what the notches were for'. This seemed surprising as these were primarily Czech museums, where Wagner had been a curator.

20th April 2017, 05:48 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	I hope the detail from Wagner might respond to your earlier question Victrix. I agree, it would be great to see the photo of the sword with the tip. That was why I wrote the those museums and got photos of the swords emphasizing the notched tip. The British sword I mentioned has only in the description that the tip was notched, and apparently deliberately, not from damage. However this reference was in my notes and the source not cited (I cant believe I did that!) so useless for supportive evidence. I just know I saw it, and the sword was entirely out of East European context c. 1780. There must be some account or reference in the military history corpus of these Austrian and Prussian cavalry in which this curious anomaly is noted. Occasionally such dimension and detail is noted in mention of the troopers field notching their blades perhaps.

20th April 2017, 10:04 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 682	Yes, thank you very much Jim for raising the issue of notches on blades to my attention. If I come across information regarding this I will share it with you. We might not necessarily be able to solve the conundrum, but at least we'll be able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusions.

12th December 2022, 05:49 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Udo, thank you so much for this! I cannot believe I missed these other most valuable entries bv Victrix and Cel7 et al.....and Wayne, well noted on the Spanish notch.....another anomaly of this genre. I think the mention of the 'swiping back cut' is a most viable suggestion. In some sword fighting the Italians used a diversionary slashing cut termed 'stramazone', which usually was on the forehead. This resulted of course in bleeding into the eyes and rendering the opponent notably distracted, unable to defend properly. This seems more viable for such a feature than for dramatic wounding, which would be redundant in a thrust. The notions of these relatively shallow and small notches for picking up items off the ground or for catching reins seem a bit tenuous and unlikely. Thanks to JT88 for the Pottenstein detail! Really sorry guys, not sure what happened, I cant even blame the UFO's

14th January 2024, 08:16 PM	#13
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 68	Just having found this post and read the discussion about the mysterious notches. As a HEMA practioner there is a trick with sabres of snapping a short back edge draw cut at your opponents sword hand or wrist. I'm given to understand it comes from Hungarian sources but can't confirm this as my own study has been focused on British sources. The point is this is not an effective cut and in no way could it be a fight ending blow, its intent is to injure your opponents hand just enough to give you an advantage going forward and the notch does appear perfect for this technique. It is also a technique for one on one duels not open battle which may explain why it appears on only some blades, both officer and enlisted. This would suggest that the owner of that particular blade was willing and prepared to fight a duel, or at least wished to appear as such. The fact that the technique does not appear in the British manuals and that the notches do not appear on British blades may be considered suggestive but hardly constitutes proof. Robert

15th January 2024, 02:23 PM	#14
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,171	What please is a "HEMA practioner"?