Enquiry about a Bali keris motif

SidJ · 17th March 2023, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, if some of us can agree that perhaps a degree of wisdom was absent in whoever made this blade, is it possible that this blade was made by a person who respected Lord Siwa?

Perhaps the old meanings underlying the structure were lost or not considered important enough. Perhaps the influence of Hinduism is fading away at least away from Bali?

David · 17th March 2023, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidJ

Perhaps the old meanings underlying the structure were lost or not considered important enough. Perhaps the influence of Hinduism is fading away at least away from Bali?

Well, the observation does perhaps force us to reassess the time frame, and possibly the location in which this keris was created.

A. G. Maisey · 17th March 2023, 08:07 PM

During the period I have been closely associated with Jawa & Bali, & that means approx. the last 50 odd years, I have only very rarely encountered what I could consider to be "old" understandings of the keris, and the people who had these understandings were, for the most part, not craftsmen, nor collectors, nor dealers, they were mostly people who had no particular interest in keris at all.

So yes, I am inclined to believe that a lot of the ideas that might have been associated with the keris at times in the past are now no longer a part of keris understanding.

The belief system that is Bali-Hindu has always varied from the belief system that we regard as mainstream Hindu. In very simple terms Bali-Hindu prior to the Independence of Indonesia was a mixture of Hindu-Buddhist- & indigenous beliefs, and it still is, but the requirements of the Abrahamic religions, and specifically Islam, that came with the formation of the new state of Indonesia required the Bali Hindu religion to adopt certain changes in order to retain the legitimacy of the Balinese system of belief, so now, we do not call the Balinese system of belief "Bali Hindu", we call it "Bali Dharma", or more correctly "Agama Hindu Dharma".

There is a lot about this on the net, but good old Wiki puts it all into a teacup:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balinese_Hinduism

Gustav · 21st March 2023, 11:08 PM

The inspiration for this specimen, so it seems, can be found in Hales book, p. 125, Nr. 306.

I agree with everything Alan has said regarding it, would like to add an observation about Pamor. There are only three layers of Pamor material on a side, which is absolutely OK for Bali/Lombok Keris - but this Pamor material is very thin, very uniformly thin, and of very uniform consistence/colour. It seems, whoever made it, likely did have access to prefabricated (in a Western way) material in plates/sheets.

I know of at least one Keris with long Sogokan following Luk, which is genuine Bali. It was taken after the Puputan in Denpasar in 1906. I have seen a couple of other old Keris with this feature, but they could also have been from Lombok.

Anthony G. · 22nd March 2023, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The inspiration for this specimen, so it seems, can be found in Hales book, p. 125, Nr. 306.

I agree with everything Alan has said regarding it, would like to add an observation about Pamor. There are only three layers of Pamor material on a side, which is absolutely OK for Bali/Lombok Keris - but this Pamor material is very thin, very uniformly thin, and of very uniform consistence/colour. It seems, whoever made it, likely did have access to prefabricated (in a Western way) material in plates/sheets.

I know of at least one Keris with long Sogokan following Luk, which is genuine Bali. It was taken after the Puputan in Denpasar in 1906. I have seen a couple of other old Keris with this feature, but they could also have been from Lombok.

What is your view about this? I have a Lombok friend who told me that old Balinese keris does not have luk that exceed 17 luk. Above 17 Luks are more likely modern century creation.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2023, 04:51 AM

Gustav, just a comment in respect of pamor.

It really does not matter what the source of the contrasting material is prior to it being used in a keris, it also does not matter how thick it is, nor its form.

Before the first weld is taken to fix it between iron, the contrasting material is forged very thin, about as thick as a piece of newspaper. When I have done this part of the forging, I would take the nickel to the point where it began to break up under the hammer & show holes in the material. This nickel usually started out as about 15-20mm thick.

The uniform thickness of the contrasting material in the finished blade is an indication that the entire forging & welding process was well controlled & consistent.

The idea of long sogokan following luk is new to me. In a keris with luk there will normally be a bend in the sogokan, but the proportional length should not vary. Some keris do have exceptionally long grooves in place of a sogokan, I've forgotten the usual name for these, but they are not sogokan.

In an old Balinese keris that follows tradition, the number of luk by conventional count, should not exceed 13. Yes, I am aware that we can find old keris with more luk than this, but the legitimacy within the socio-cultural tradition is open to question.

jagabuwana · 22nd March 2023, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In an old Balinese keris that follows tradition, the number of luk by conventional count, should not exceed 13.

Alan, I take this to mean 13 luk by the current convention of counting and therefore 11 luk by the old method. Am I understanding correctly?

Gustav · 22nd March 2023, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

What is your view about this? I have a Lombok friend who told me that old Balinese keris does not have luk that exceed 17 luk. Above 17 Luks are more likely modern century creation.

Anthony, if you ask about the Keris in Hales book (which has 31 Luk), it's impossible to say something from a quite small picture. Its appearance in that picture is that of a Keris older then Ex-IFICAH, which surely is 20th century, and I think, not the very beginning of it.

Regarding high number Luk Kerisses in Bali, Jasper&Mas Pirngadie, who gathered their material in the years before and around WWI and are conservative about Keris Bali, do list names for Keris with 15 and 25 Luk.

As I wrote, there is a Keris with 19 Luk in the collection of museum in Leiden, which was taken after the Puputan in Denpasar.

But your friend certainly is wright in that there surely are much more modern creations with high Luk number then genuine old ones.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2023, 12:42 PM

Gustav, we can find high numbers of luk in keris that originated in a number of locations, but in every case of which I am aware, these are relatively recent keris. When I say "relatively recent", I am thinking in a Javanese time frame, which places keris younger than Sultan Agung as "new keris". I am not thinking in terms of Kamardikan nor even of 19th century.

In Javanese keris tradition any keris with more than 13 luk (conventional count) is regarded as a keris that was made for somebody who was outside the norms of society, somebody with special talents or qualities, such as a dukun, or an artist, or similar people with particular characters or talents.

I do not know why a Balinese style keris might have more than the socially supportable number of luk, but my suspicion is that such a Balinese style might well have been made within the Balinese community in Lombok. I once had custody of a royal keris that had many more than the socially supportable number of luk, and based upon the old dress (19th century), which was Lombok style dress, and possibly upon the kinatah work, this might well have been of Balinese/Lombok origin.

If we play with the numerology of keris luk we can draw all sorts of conclusions from the results, for example, if we apply the game to the keris under discussion we can say that 3 + 5 = 8, now the number 8 according to the Candra Sangkala is the number of both the Naga & the Elephant, and the Elephant is the icon of Ganesha. But in my opinion, this sort of construction really has very little to support it, so it is perhaps as well not to go anywhere near it. There are a variety of numerological applications that can be applied to keris.

In summary, yes, we can find keris from Bali with more luk than socio-cultural mores can support, and at the present time we do not know why.

Just because this keris under discussion does have more luk than we might tend to expect, that by itself is perhaps not sufficient to affix any sort of age to it, but when we look at the number of rather questionable characteristics of this keris, there does seem to me to be quite a few open questions.

17th March 2023, 08:07 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	During the period I have been closely associated with Jawa & Bali, & that means approx. the last 50 odd years, I have only very rarely encountered what I could consider to be "old" understandings of the keris, and the people who had these understandings were, for the most part, not craftsmen, nor collectors, nor dealers, they were mostly people who had no particular interest in keris at all. So yes, I am inclined to believe that a lot of the ideas that might have been associated with the keris at times in the past are now no longer a part of keris understanding. The belief system that is Bali-Hindu has always varied from the belief system that we regard as mainstream Hindu. In very simple terms Bali-Hindu prior to the Independence of Indonesia was a mixture of Hindu-Buddhist- & indigenous beliefs, and it still is, but the requirements of the Abrahamic religions, and specifically Islam, that came with the formation of the new state of Indonesia required the Bali Hindu religion to adopt certain changes in order to retain the legitimacy of the Balinese system of belief, so now, we do not call the Balinese system of belief "Bali Hindu", we call it "Bali Dharma", or more correctly "Agama Hindu Dharma". There is a lot about this on the net, but good old Wiki puts it all into a teacup:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balinese_Hinduism Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 17th March 2023 at 08:22 PM.

21st March 2023, 11:08 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,205	The inspiration for this specimen, so it seems, can be found in Hales book, p. 125, Nr. 306. I agree with everything Alan has said regarding it, would like to add an observation about Pamor. There are only three layers of Pamor material on a side, which is absolutely OK for Bali/Lombok Keris - but this Pamor material is very thin, very uniformly thin, and of very uniform consistence/colour. It seems, whoever made it, likely did have access to prefabricated (in a Western way) material in plates/sheets. I know of at least one Keris with long Sogokan following Luk, which is genuine Bali. It was taken after the Puputan in Denpasar in 1906. I have seen a couple of other old Keris with this feature, but they could also have been from Lombok. Last edited by Gustav; 21st March 2023 at 11:21 PM.

22nd March 2023, 04:51 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	Gustav, just a comment in respect of pamor. It really does not matter what the source of the contrasting material is prior to it being used in a keris, it also does not matter how thick it is, nor its form. Before the first weld is taken to fix it between iron, the contrasting material is forged very thin, about as thick as a piece of newspaper. When I have done this part of the forging, I would take the nickel to the point where it began to break up under the hammer & show holes in the material. This nickel usually started out as about 15-20mm thick. The uniform thickness of the contrasting material in the finished blade is an indication that the entire forging & welding process was well controlled & consistent. The idea of long sogokan following luk is new to me. In a keris with luk there will normally be a bend in the sogokan, but the proportional length should not vary. Some keris do have exceptionally long grooves in place of a sogokan, I've forgotten the usual name for these, but they are not sogokan. In an old Balinese keris that follows tradition, the number of luk by conventional count, should not exceed 13. Yes, I am aware that we can find old keris with more luk than this, but the legitimacy within the socio-cultural tradition is open to question.

22nd March 2023, 12:42 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,741	Gustav, we can find high numbers of luk in keris that originated in a number of locations, but in every case of which I am aware, these are relatively recent keris. When I say "relatively recent", I am thinking in a Javanese time frame, which places keris younger than Sultan Agung as "new keris". I am not thinking in terms of Kamardikan nor even of 19th century. In Javanese keris tradition any keris with more than 13 luk (conventional count) is regarded as a keris that was made for somebody who was outside the norms of society, somebody with special talents or qualities, such as a dukun, or an artist, or similar people with particular characters or talents. I do not know why a Balinese style keris might have more than the socially supportable number of luk, but my suspicion is that such a Balinese style might well have been made within the Balinese community in Lombok. I once had custody of a royal keris that had many more than the socially supportable number of luk, and based upon the old dress (19th century), which was Lombok style dress, and possibly upon the kinatah work, this might well have been of Balinese/Lombok origin. If we play with the numerology of keris luk we can draw all sorts of conclusions from the results, for example, if we apply the game to the keris under discussion we can say that 3 + 5 = 8, now the number 8 according to the Candra Sangkala is the number of both the Naga & the Elephant, and the Elephant is the icon of Ganesha. But in my opinion, this sort of construction really has very little to support it, so it is perhaps as well not to go anywhere near it. There are a variety of numerological applications that can be applied to keris. In summary, yes, we can find keris from Bali with more luk than socio-cultural mores can support, and at the present time we do not know why. Just because this keris under discussion does have more luk than we might tend to expect, that by itself is perhaps not sufficient to affix any sort of age to it, but when we look at the number of rather questionable characteristics of this keris, there does seem to me to be quite a few open questions.